Recommend me a 2 channel amp (new or used) for $3,200

[JoeE SP9]

If an amplifier produces more than rated at 8 Ohms that is hardly specsmanship. How about calling it what the manufacturer calls it. The word here is conservative. You know, as in the minimum the owner can expect. I seem to remember many amplifier adds saying something like this amp is conservatively rated at xxx WPC. I hardly call that specsmanship.

It seems to me that a manufacturer has the right to rate an amplifier at any real world rating they choose. The real issue here is will that amp work into a 4, 2 or even a 1 Ohm load. The good ones do. I would rather see an amplifier that can produce 150WPC at 8 Ohms rated at 100WPC @ 8 Ohms especially if it doubles down from that rating. Being conservative with power ratings is not new to the high end. Maybe you are too used to mid and low-fi gear that exaggerates it's power output.

[Tako]

Maybe you are too used to mid and low-fi gear that exaggerates it's power output.

Yeah that's probably it, did you even bother to READ my post?

Seriously, is the idea of manufacturers toning down their 8 ohm power specs to make it appear as if their amplifier doubles power output into 4 ohms really that far fetched? I find the naivity of some people endearing, but also a bit troubling: These are the same businesses that try to sell us their boutique audio gear for astronomical prices, with all sorts of crazy stories about vague non-issues , but when they are consistently off on their 8 ohm power spec (and usually spot on with the lower impedance specs) that is because they are "conservative". Call me cynical, but I'm just not buying that.

I am curious: Which brands actually exaggerate their power output? I don't think I'v never encounterd this outside the real bottom of the barrel mail order "400WATTS" boomboxes (with "pmpo" in tiny letters)of the late 80's. Don't you have laws against this sort of practice in the USA?

[JoeE SP9]

Take a close look at the specs of any piece of gear from Pyle. If you want to see exaggeration.

Lighten up! Conservatively rating gear is no big deal and nothing new. I've seen manufacturers literature that actually states "This is the minimum...". Why do you have a problem with a manufacturer being conservative in their ratings? If you don't like the way some one rates their products you have the option of not buying them.

I must admit in my 44+ years of involvement in this passion you are the first person I've ever heard complain that a manufacturer under rates their gear. Sheesh! If only all products actually gave you more than they advertised.

[Tako]

Take a close look at the specs of any piece of gear from Pyle. If you want to see exaggeration.

Lighten up! Conservatively rating gear is no big deal and nothing new. I've seen manufacturers literature that actually states "This is the minimum...". Why do you have a problem with a manufacturer being conservative in their ratings? If you don't like the way some one rates their products you have the option of not buying them.

I must admit in my 44+ years of involvement in this passion you are the first person I've ever heard complain that a manufacturer under rates their gear. Sheesh! If only all products actually gave you more than they advertised.

Joe SP9 Again I get the idea you did not even read my previous posts: I allready stated that technically (and to me personally) it is not a big deal. There's nothing to "sheesh' about and I am not complaining about anything.
It's pretty much impossible to talk to you if you are not going to read what I write, but I'll try one more time:

Someone earlyer in the topic mentioned something about manufacturers rating their stuff conservatively as opposed to some other brands that exxagerate their specs. This was said like the former is something praise-worthy, and the latter some sort of deception. I was merely pointing out that since a large portion of audiophiles believe that an amplifier that doubles it's output power into 8 ohm is better than one that doesn't, "conservative specs" can be just as deceptive as exaggerated specs. (Particularly if ONLY the 8 ohm spec is conservative)

Whenever you buy something, ANYTHING, chances are you are getting deceived, probably not lied to, manufacturers are careful not to break the laws (That's why I believe exaggerated specs are much rarer than the audiophile community sometimes makes it out to be, I've never heard of Pyle, it is probably not being sold in the EU if they really overspec their stuff).
Special Yoghurt that stimulates your bowels? A pack of sigaretes also stimulates my bowels, that doesn't mean it's healthy!
Infant milk that stimluates the immmune system in a natural way? A jar of mayonayse will also stimulate an infant's immune system in a natural way!
Lemonade with 10 times more vitamin C than an orange? Cool, to bad an orange contains all the vitamin C a body needs every day, and we can't store it.
And have you ever met a woman above 20 years old that does not use some sort of "anti ageing cream"? Ask ANY dermatologyst and he'll tell you the same thing: There is no such thing as anti ageing cream!
Or how about the contrast ratio's on Flatscreen TV's? 400.000:1? 1000000:1? Under what conditions? Maufacturers consistently pick a way of measuring them that makes the figure end up as high as possible.

These deceptions are so incredibly widespread that the idea that a group of manufacturers does not practice them because they build cool audio gear is preposterous. Again: These are the same brands that want to make us believe that that 2cm thick massive alluminium front panel is necessary to combat vibrations (Which affect an amplifier's sound in what way exactly?) They are also the same brands that proudly advertise using special "for audio" components (Which basically means: Bottom of the barrel quality, "for audio" just means it does not have to adhere to any standards) You'd have to be incredibly naive to think these are anything else than just another way to try and sell you a 500$ amplifier for 10.000$.
As long as there is NOT A SHRED of evidence that people can actually tell the difference between a 300$ Sony integrated and a 20k pre-power combo as long as they meet certain easy to reach standards. (Really, there isn't and there is pretty strong evidence to support the opposite), As long as double blind tests show again and again people can not hear the difference between a 70$ DVD player and a 10k Cd player, I am going to view any claim audio manufactures make in the most critical way possible. They are in the same league as the companies trying to sell your wife (and you, males also need ant ageing cream these days) an 80$ jar of scented grease.

[duficity]

I would have to disagree that there is no difference between a $300 Sony integrated amp and a 20k pre-power combo. While getting the basics right is the same for each, and not that difficult, it is at the extremes that the differences come out. And that is not the sort of thing that 10 minutes of AB comparison will show definitively. But if you listen to either for long periods of time, you will find the cheap integrated to be lifeless, grating, tiring on the ears and so forth. While the high end model will likely not suffer the same fatique in listening. I can't explain why, as I am not a sound or electrical engineer. But I can tell when something just doesnt sound right over time. Its like a nagging headache, that is bearly there, but is, and becomes annoying over time.
I can absolutely say that I can tell the difference between a CD and Vinyl of the same recording almost immediately, and so can my wife. An its not because of any tip off from skips or scratches. We can hear it even when in another room. But my vocabulary is insufficient to accurately describe the differences. Vinyl, and a high end amp, just sound more relaxed and less mechanical or electronic.

[Boukman]

One can definitely hear the difference between analog and digital. Somehow, Analog feels more natural. It is easier to carry on a conversation at loud analog volumes than with digital. At low volumes, the sound tends to carry further. And I can listen for much longer. Vinyl, a good valve amp and great speakers do the job for me

[JoeE SP9]

Take a close look at the specs of any piece of gear from Pyle. If you want to see exaggeration.

Lighten up! Conservatively rating gear is no big deal and nothing new. I've seen manufacturers literature that actually states "This is the minimum...". Why do you have a problem with a manufacturer being conservative in their ratings? If you don't like the way some one rates their products you have the option of not buying them.

I must admit in my 44+ years of involvement in this passion you are the first person I've ever heard complain that a manufacturer under rates their gear. Sheesh! If only all products actually gave you more than they advertised.

Joe SP9 Again I get the idea you did not even read my previous posts: I allready stated that technically (and to me personally) it is not a big deal. There's nothing to "sheesh' about and I am not complaining about anything.
It's pretty much impossible to talk to you if you are not going to read what I write, but I'll try one more time:

Someone earlyer in the topic mentioned something about manufacturers rating their stuff conservatively as opposed to some other brands that exxagerate their specs. This was said like the former is something praise-worthy, and the latter some sort of deception. I was merely pointing out that since a large portion of audiophiles believe that an amplifier that doubles it's output power into 8 ohm is better than one that doesn't, "conservative specs" can be just as deceptive as exaggerated specs. (Particularly if ONLY the 8 ohm spec is conservative)

Whenever you buy something, ANYTHING, chances are you are getting deceived, probably not lied to, manufacturers are careful not to break the laws (That's why I believe exaggerated specs are much rarer than the audiophile community sometimes makes it out to be, I've never heard of Pyle, it is probably not being sold in the EU if they really overspec their stuff).
Special Yoghurt that stimulates your bowels? A pack of sigaretes also stimulates my bowels, that doesn't mean it's healthy!
Infant milk that stimluates the immmune system in a natural way? A jar of mayonayse will also stimulate an infant's immune system in a natural way!
Lemonade with 10 times more vitamin C than an orange? Cool, to bad an orange contains all the vitamin C a body needs every day, and we can't store it.
And have you ever met a woman above 20 years old that does not use some sort of "anti ageing cream"? Ask ANY dermatologyst and he'll tell you the same thing: There is no such thing as anti ageing cream!
Or how about the contrast ratio's on Flatscreen TV's? 400.000:1? 1000000:1? Under what conditions? Maufacturers consistently pick a way of measuring them that makes the figure end up as high as possible.

These deceptions are so incredibly widespread that the idea that a group of manufacturers does not practice them because they build cool audio gear is preposterous. Again: These are the same brands that want to make us believe that that 2cm thick massive alluminium front panel is necessary to combat vibrations (Which affect an amplifier's sound in what way exactly?) They are also the same brands that proudly advertise using special "for audio" components (Which basically means: Bottom of the barrel quality, "for audio" just means it does not have to adhere to any standards) You'd have to be incredibly naive to think these are anything else than just another way to try and sell you a 500$ amplifier for 10.000$.
As long as there is NOT A SHRED of evidence that people can actually tell the difference between a 300$ Sony integrated and a 20k pre-power combo as long as they meet certain easy to reach standards. (Really, there isn't and there is pretty strong evidence to support the opposite), As long as double blind tests show again and again people can not hear the difference between a 70$ DVD player and a 10k Cd player, I am going to view any claim audio manufactures make in the most critical way possible. They are in the same league as the companies trying to sell your wife (and you, males also need ant ageing cream these days) an 80$ jar of scented grease.

You know there's one thing I really look forward to. That's a do gooder trying to tell me what's best for me and the rest of the world.

Stop thinking that you are the fount of all wisdom. You're not and nobody wants you telling them you are.

If you think cheap gear sounds as good as more expensive gear that's your business. There are many listeners who don't agree with this. We don't berate you for thinking cheap is good. Leave us alone to spend our money as we see fit.

Frankly it's none of your business.

BTW: I went back and re-read all your posts several times. I disagree with you on just about every point you make. As a manufacturer I have the right to rate my product in any way I want as long as it's truthful. If I wish to say my amp produces "x" watts at 8 Ohms and it produces more so what! It should only be a problem when it produces less than "x".

When I was working as an engineer every amplifier I measured on the bench produced more power at 8 Ohms than advertised. I never once considered it specmanship mostly because the ones that advertised "double down" power actually produced "double down" power equal to twice their actual 8 Ohm output. The $300 sony integrated won't do that, however a $3000 krell will.

[GlassWolf]

I do understand that the vast majority of the hi end amplifiers do not have any tone controls I do like to have them for minor tweaking on bad recordings. Granted, it's not a necessity in my list of demos just more of a piece of mind to tweak the system instead of swapping out interconnects or other pieces.

If you want to save some money and still want a good product, look at a used Adcom GFA-555II or GFA-555 Pro (if you need balanced inputs) Used you can pick them up for about $350-450. I use one driven at 4 ohms, and I love it.
If you want sound shaping, consider going with a separate EQ run through your control amp's tape loop, like an old Onkyo Integra EQ-35 (analog) or an Alesis EQ-230 (digital) or something similar.

[Tako]

You know there's one thing I really look forward to. That's a do gooder trying to tell me what's best for me and the rest of the world.

Stop thinking that you are the fount of all wisdom. You're not and nobody wants you telling them you are.

If you think cheap gear sounds as good as more expensive gear that's your business. There are many listeners who don't agree with this. We don't berate you for thinking cheap is good. Leave us alone to spend our money as we see fit.

Frankly it's none of your business.

BTW: I went back and re-read all your posts several times. I disagree with you on just about every point you make. As a manufacturer I have the right to rate my product in any way I want as long as it's truthful. If I wish to say my amp produces "x" watts at 8 Ohms and it produces more so what! It should only be a problem when it produces less than "x".

When I was working as an engineer every amplifier I measured on the bench produced more power at 8 Ohms than advertised. I never once considered it specmanship mostly because the ones that advertised "double down" power actually produced "double down" power equal to twice their actual 8 Ohm output. The $300 sony integrated won't do that, however a $3000 krell will.

I'm giving up JoeE SP9, it's impossible to argue with you, , you don't read anything I write, or at least interpretet it in a very biased way and you blow a simple personal opinion about modern consumerism completely out of proportion, cherry-picking out of context bits of my previous posts to paint a completeley false picture of my ideas and opinions. Calling me a "do-gooder that tries to tell you what's best for you"? As far as I remember the only thing I ever tried to tell you was what exactly I meant with a post directed at someone else becaue I got the impression you misunderstood me. Saying I should "Stop thinking that you are the fount of all wisdom. You're not and nobody wants you telling them you are."? Is to bizarre to even contemplate, I was under the impression message boards exist to exchange opinions, but if mine happens to disagree with yours you resort to this kind of nonsense, and tell me to "leave us alone"? Why are you even on a message board if someone else's opinion is so threatening to you? And you say you are an engineer? I have a really hard time believing that with your immature attitude and apparent lack of basic reading skills.

[Tako]

I do understand that the vast majority of the hi end amplifiers do not have any tone controls I do like to have them for minor tweaking on bad recordings. Granted, it's not a necessity in my list of demos just more of a piece of mind to tweak the system instead of swapping out interconnects or other pieces.

If you want to save some money and still want a good product, look at a used Adcom GFA-555II or GFA-555 Pro (if you need balanced inputs) Used you can pick them up for about $350-450. I use one driven at 4 ohms, and I love it.
If you want sound shaping, consider going with a separate EQ run through your control amp's tape loop, like an old Onkyo Integra EQ-35 (analog) or an Alesis EQ-230 (digital) or something similar.

There are also numerous "pro" equalizers still on the market, with a 3200 budget the top brands like Klark Technik could very well be an option.

[GlassWolf]

true. good call. I didn't think of that because I generally don't use an EQ unless it's something like Audyssey for room EQing. I don't tamper with bass/treble settings though, so EQs aren't a forte of mine. I just wanted to offer a possible alternative that won't clean out his budget.

I do adore this Adcom 555II I use though. On a pair of KEF Ref 104/2s, it sounds great, and I boought mine used, in like-new condition for $300 from a gentleman.
325WPC @ 4 ohms continuous.

[JoeE SP9]

You know there's one thing I really look forward to. That's a do gooder trying to tell me what's best for me and the rest of the world.

Stop thinking that you are the fount of all wisdom. You're not and nobody wants you telling them you are.

If you think cheap gear sounds as good as more expensive gear that's your business. There are many listeners who don't agree with this. We don't berate you for thinking cheap is good. Leave us alone to spend our money as we see fit.

Frankly it's none of your business.

BTW: I went back and re-read all your posts several times. I disagree with you on just about every point you make. As a manufacturer I have the right to rate my product in any way I want as long as it's truthful. If I wish to say my amp produces "x" watts at 8 Ohms and it produces more so what! It should only be a problem when it produces less than "x".

When I was working as an engineer every amplifier I measured on the bench produced more power at 8 Ohms than advertised. I never once considered it specmanship mostly because the ones that advertised "double down" power actually produced "double down" power equal to twice their actual 8 Ohm output. The $300 sony integrated won't do that, however a $3000 krell will.

I'm giving up JoeE SP9, it's impossible to argue with you, , you don't read anything I write, or at least interpretet it in a very biased way and you blow a simple personal opinion about modern consumerism completely out of proportion, cherry-picking out of context bits of my previous posts to paint a completeley false picture of my ideas and opinions. Calling me a "do-gooder that tries to tell you what's best for you"? As far as I remember the only thing I ever tried to tell you was what exactly I meant with a post directed at someone else becaue I got the impression you misunderstood me. Saying I should "Stop thinking that you are the fount of all wisdom. You're not and nobody wants you telling them you are."? Is to bizarre to even contemplate, I was under the impression message boards exist to exchange opinions, but if mine happens to disagree with yours you resort to this kind of nonsense, and tell me to "leave us alone"? Why are you even on a message board if someone else's opinion is so threatening to you? And you say you are an engineer? I have a really hard time believing that with your immature attitude and apparent lack of basic reading skills.

All of your posts have a condescending "I know what's best for you" tone. I'm sorry you can't see that or understand that adults don't need or want to be told we're the victims of advertising. I give the posters here more credit than you apparently do.

Participants on this and other forums aren't the standard uninformed comsumers you keep suggesting they are. Your "I know best" attitude isn't threatening. It's just more of the standard unwanted do gooder mantra. Your pronouncements make you out to be the authority on truth in advertising and the relative worth of audio gear. IMO you are neither.

Regardless of your personal beliefs you don't know what's best for me. I suspect that applies to others also.

[Tako]

JoeE SP9: My posts don't have a tone at all (and IF you are so annoyed by a "tone" why adopt such a hostile way of argueing yourself?) , there is nothing written between the lines, there is no conspiracy, I am just a guy with an above average (cost-wise similar to the stuff you list in your sig after a "downgrade" from MUCH more expensive gear if that makes you feel any better about my experience with high end stuff ) stereo system who sometimes wonders if he might have been conned into buying stuff he doesn't need, which, unfortunately I see happening all the time with other people/products, which is why I have to assume it could happen to me too. I went out of my way to specifically state underspeccing IS NO BIG DEAL again and again, I NEVER said I am the fountain of knowledge, I NEVER said you are the victim of advertising and I NEVER said I know what's best for you, but somehow you distill all of this and much more from the "tone" of my messages , that is a form of communication that is not just counterproductive, but also completely alien to me, hence me withdrawing myself from this discussion.

[Tako]

true. good call. I didn't think of that because I generally don't use an EQ unless it's something like Audyssey for room EQing. I don't tamper with bass/treble settings though, so EQs aren't a forte of mine. I just wanted to offer a possible alternative that won't clean out his budget.

I do adore this Adcom 555II I use though. On a pair of KEF Ref 104/2s, it sounds great, and I boought mine used, in like-new condition for $300 from a gentleman.
325WPC @ 4 ohms continuous.

I'm not an authority on EQ's either, but did at one point consider a Klark DN370 because of serious acoustic issues (And a couple of 1000 poor pre-1960 recordings). I even contacted Klark about using it in the tape loop of a Hi-fi integrated with XLR-Cinch cables and their engineer answered me that this would pose no problems. The DN370 even has 2 variable notch filters per channel to get rid of standing waves or narrow band noise (16khz CRT monitor beeeeeeep anyone), it also has a defeat switch that completely takes any electronics out of the signal. I think in the USA there might be other brands with similar features and a better cost/performance ratio, "Rane" (IIRC) was a brand I looked into. It was too expensive on the EU market compared to "our" EU-built brands, but considerably cheaper in the USA.