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True Mono from a Stereo cartridge - switchable !

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Re: True Mono from a Stereo cartridge - switchable !

Postby Coffee Phil » 28 May 2012 17:50

Hi ld,

Nice job. Thanks for the pictures showing what we hear. The pictures should help convince the "true" mono cartridge zealots. Among the "non true mono" listeners there still is the discussion of whether to put the coils in series or in parallel. The problem which you mentioned about the loading on each channel by the opposite channel being a low impedance and reactive bothers me, however I think it is what many manufacturers do in their 78 cartridges. The issue with the series connection is the low resistance and high capacitance loading both you and Joe addressed.

I wanted to avoid both issues and I wanted to be able to switch from lateral to vertical easily so I built the circuit below:

[img]18919[/img]

After getting started I figured I should have most of the playback EQs I might find a need for.

To address the issue you brought up about phase and amplitude skew by summing down stream I attempted to mitigate that by summing right after a ~10 dB buffer stage on each channel. I used 1% resistors all off the same tape reel to keep the gains well matched. Also all EQ is done after the summing node.

You may notice I included a 700 Hz treble cut position. I don't think that was used in any recording but I included it to give a constant amplitude responce when used with the bass turn of 700 Hz. With that one can hear what a ceramic cartridge would ideally sound like using a magnetic cartridge.

Phil



ld wrote:Prompted by thinking about the coil arrangement in 's carts on another thread, I came up with a general method for obtaining true mono from a stereo cartridge. There seems a significant (4-6dB) noise advantage versus stereo replay of a mono recording. Also described is a simple way to make it switchable between true mono and true stereo. Measurements and listening tests show a significant noise reduction, c 4-6dB, versus mono replay on a stereo cartridge.

I don't know if it's already known, but it's new to me. It has excellent results for noise improvement and sound, so I thought I'd post it anyway.

The idea is to connect L & R coils in series, and the series output is then true mono. Mono groove modulation is purely lateral movement, of course, and this method significantly attenuates noise output from vertical stylus movement. Each coil produces antiphase signals for pure vertical motion, in phase for pure lateral motion.

Although similar effects can be produced electronically by combining L+R signals later in the signal path, the method described here avoids the need for a seperate summing stage, and avoids phase and amplitude errors often arising through other methods.

13385
This sketch shows an implementation using a DPDT switch to toggle between true stereo and true mono. I conveniently built this into the base of the arm housing under the TT I used for testing, so can switch between stereo and mono easily.

Here's a screenshot of a mono audio sample (tone), showing the effect of flipping the switch :
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Signal amplitude increases by 6dB when the mono switch is set. Note noise peaks remain same amplitude.

Here's a screenshot of a silent groove, showing the effect on noise floor of flipping the switch:
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Groove noise remains approx similar amplitude. But signal amplitude increased by 6dB (above), hence S/N improves by c 6dB when mono switch set.

Here's a spectrum plot of the silent groove samples, normalised for 6dB offset in signal amplitude:
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The benefit is clear across the spectrum. 4-6dB

Here's a plot of a 150Hz mono sinusoid tone, to check harmonic distortion.
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Harmonic distortion is more or less unaltered. There is something strange going on in the 20-50Hz range though. It remains when the stylus is lifted off, so seems hum or preamp related - this is not a very good preamp BTW.

Here's a plot that shows Vertical Modulation rejection at 1kHz is c 16dB, and across the spectrum is up to 20dB. That is how much attenuation vertical stylus noise gets.
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click to open full size

I tested this on an Ortofon OM5E in a project 9C arm. The S/N ratio improvement for mono records is obvious, toggling the switch.

Sound is as good as the cartridge. Voicing changes significantly due to cartridge loading on toggling the switch. I found an interim load of 68k per channel voices well enough for both stereo and mono, but I expect much more can be done to obtain optimal loading and voicing.

In the fullness of time I expect to leave a TT set up like this, because the S/N advantage when replaying mono recordings seems significant.

Neat, eh ? Appols if this is old hat, but it's not to me !
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Re: True Mono from a Stereo cartridge - switchable !

Postby steve195527 » 28 May 2012 18:19

why so complicated?Stanton and Pickering used to supply diagrams of how to wire a stereo cart for mono use:-for lateral mono(most cases) just link both the hots together and both the earths together for vertical left hot and right earth are linked and right hot and left earth,easy enough to build a switching box to do this or coversly just wire a two phono socket to one plug appropriately to suit the type you're wanting to listen to
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Re: True Mono from a Stereo cartridge - switchable !

Postby Ldg » 28 May 2012 19:13

steve195527 wrote:why so complicated?Stanton and Pickering used to supply diagrams of how to wire a stereo cart for mono use:-for lateral mono(most cases) just link both the hots together and both the earths together for vertical left hot and right earth are linked and right hot and left earth,easy enough to build a switching box to do this or coversly just wire a two phono socket to one plug appropriately to suit the type you're wanting to listen to

Because that neither sounds, nor measures, anywhere near as good as I hear/measure it. And the method I describe really isn't very complicated in any event.
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Re: True Mono from a Stereo cartridge - switchable !

Postby Ldg » 28 May 2012 19:19

Coffee Phil wrote:I wanted to avoid both issues and I wanted to be able to switch from lateral to vertical easily so I built the circuit below:

[img]18919[/img]



Nice one, CP !
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Re: True Mono from a Stereo cartridge - switchable !

Postby steve195527 » 28 May 2012 19:50

ld wrote:
steve195527 wrote:why so complicated?Stanton and Pickering used to supply diagrams of how to wire a stereo cart for mono use:-for lateral mono(most cases) just link both the hots together and both the earths together for vertical left hot and right earth are linked and right hot and left earth,easy enough to build a switching box to do this or coversly just wire a two phono socket to one plug appropriately to suit the type you're wanting to listen to

Because that neither sounds, nor measures, anywhere near as good as I hear/measure it. And the method I describe really isn't very complicated in any event.


the best electronics are no electronics,besides stanton(old stanton!) probably know(knew) more about reproducing stereo and mono than anybody posting on here,if they thought doing it using electronics was better they would have advised folk to do so,perhaps you like what the electronics are adding?
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Re: True Mono from a Stereo cartridge - switchable !

Postby Ldg » 28 May 2012 20:01

But there is no electronics in my method.................?! And yes, I believe it to be generally far better than the method Stanton suggest, but it is also a tad more complex to wire, which could be the motive behind compromise, who knows.
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Re: True Mono from a Stereo cartridge - switchable !

Postby steve195527 » 28 May 2012 21:19

ld wrote:But there is no electronics in my method.................?! And yes, I believe it to be generally far better than the method Stanton suggest, but it is also a tad more complex to wire, which could be the motive behind compromise, who knows.

thought you were endorsing the circuit coffee phil posted?
only real differnce between yours and stantons is they combine the signals in parallel as opposed to yours being in series,would have thought main difference was output voltage?yours in theory should be higher but if you measure the amperage theirs should be higher?,would that have an effect on sound?
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Re: True Mono from a Stereo cartridge - switchable !

Postby Ldg » 28 May 2012 22:22

With series wiring there's significant difference in the way loading is arranged, and cancellation is obtained. In series, it's done by voltage summing. In parallel by shunt loading. They are quite different.

Consider what happens if there is pure L signal, and zero R signal. In series, the output is pure L + zero = pure L. In parallel the output would be pure L shunted by the impedance of the R coil, which could be anything. That's an extreme example, but illustrates one key difference in the event L and R outputs aren't exactly identical.

And yes, one has to like CP's preamp which is so configurable.
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Re: True Mono from a Stereo cartridge - switchable !

Postby bauzace50 » 28 May 2012 23:50

Hi,

of course, one COULD have one headshell/cartridge configured in a series mono connection :oops: . But that would dedicate that headshell/cartridge for mono only, and would be quite inconvenient, ESPECIALLY if one would wish for a mono connection to both stereo channels.
The suggestions above are more flexible and convenient.
Great idea!

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Re: True Mono from a Stereo cartridge - switchable !

Postby Coffee Phil » 29 May 2012 00:23

Are you hooking your cartridge directly to your speaker(s)?

Why don't you post the schematic of the phono stage which you are using and compare it to mine set to the RIAA configuration and explain how it is less electronics. If you don't know about RIAA vs. other EQs, why are you subjecting us to your uninformed blathering?

Check out the KAB EQS MK12 and the KAB VSP MK2 on this page:

http://www.kabusa.com/frameset.htm?/

I'm thinking these folks know something about reproducing stereo and mono.

Phil


steve195527 wrote:
ld wrote:
steve195527 wrote:why so comaticplicated?Stanton and Pickering used to supply diagrams of how to wire a stereo cart for mono use:-for lateral mono(most cases) just link both the hots together and both the earths together for vertical left hot and right earth are linked and right hot and left earth,easy enough to build a switching box to do this or coversly just wire a two phono socket to one plug appropriately to suit the type you're wanting to listen to

Because that neither sounds, nor measures, anywhere near as good as I hear/measure it. And the method I describe really isn't very complicated in any event.


the best electronics are no electronics,besides stanton(old stanton!) probably know(knew) more about reproducing stereo and mono than anybody posting on here,if they thought doing it using electronics was better they would have advised folk to do so,perhaps you like what the electronics are adding?
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Re: True Mono from a Stereo cartridge - switchable !

Postby steve195527 » 29 May 2012 05:25

[quote="Coffee Phil"]Are you hooking your cartridge directly to your speaker(s)?

Why don't you post the schematic of the phono stage which you are using and compare it to mine set to the RIAA configuration and explain how it is less electronics. If you don't know about RIAA vs. other EQs, why are you subjecting us to your uninformed blathering?

Check out the KAB EQS MK12 and the KAB VSP MK2 on this page:

http://www.kabusa.com/frameset.htm?/

I'm thinking these folks know something about reproducing stereo and mono.

Phil


Oh yes,don't use any EQ or even any gain! don't be so touchy and I still think Stanton will know,probably forgotten!, more about reproducing mon and stereo than you,just saying they advised a far simpler solution,how many records play mono vertically??
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Re: True Mono from a Stereo cartridge - switchable !

Postby Coffee Phil » 29 May 2012 07:11

Steve,

I don't think Stanton would suggest using one of their magnetic cartridges without a phono stage or EQ. Do you even know what a phono stage is? You should find out before you critique mine.

I have little doubt that there are folks at Stanton who know more about record reproduction both stereo and mono than I and if one of them were to design review my phono stage you can bet I would be listening.

Yes there are many records cut vertically. All Edison records were vertical untill about 1928. Pathe cut vertically recorded discs.

Phil



steve195527 wrote:
Coffee Phil wrote:Are you hooking your cartridge directly to your speaker(s)?

Why don't you post the schematic of the phono stage which you are using and compare it to mine set to the RIAA configuration and explain how it is less electronics. If you don't know about RIAA vs. other EQs, why are you subjecting us to your uninformed blathering?

Check out the KAB EQS MK12 and the KAB VSP MK2 on this page:

http://www.kabusa.com/frameset.htm?/

I'm thinking these folks know something about reproducing stereo and mono.

Phil


Oh yes,don't use any EQ or even any gain! don't be so touchy and I still think Stanton will know,probably forgotten!, more about reproducing mon and stereo than you,just saying they advised a far simpler solution,how many records play mono vertically??
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Re: True Mono from a Stereo cartridge - switchable !

Postby Ldg » 29 May 2012 07:47

The idea of wiring the headshell for series true mono is excellent, b_50.

To do it :

Green > Green
White > White
Link Red to Blue pins on the cartridge (never solder straight to pins !)
Link Red to White wires in the headshell

Omitting the last step would result in series output on the Left channel only, but would halve cable capacitance. Then use a splitter at the phono end. Remember, resistive loading in the phono preamp needs to be raised, and internal C reduced ideally, or correct the result with eq.
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Re: True Mono from a Stereo cartridge - switchable !

Postby bauzace50 » 29 May 2012 09:29

@ ld,
Thanks. One could also fasten a little "mono" label on the headshell to make it more distinctive :wink: Italic lettering would be easily readable (Old English would be hard to read). That's for Calligraphy mavens 8) See: http://www.ehow.com/calligraphy/

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