Why are people obsessed with 180g - Merged Thread

[EdAInWestOC]

Disinformation is a terrible thing. Just because we do not understand a thing doesn't mean it does not exist. Sometimes it doesn't but in the case of record weight there is a theoretical difference.

The idea is the same thing that causes you to clamp a LP to a playing surface or pay extra money for a peripheral ring weight. You couple the LP to a playing surface to help eliminate surface vibrations on the LP playing surface. That is supposed to effect the imaging but there are some gotchas.

Your rig has to high enough quality to make a difference...first. If you cannot tell the difference between a high quality japanese pressing of a great recorded LP and the same LP from a record club then the whole subject is lost on you.

If you can tell the difference then the heavier vinyl is supposed to surpress those surface vibrations that muck up imaging. The mass of the vinyl is harder to get vibrating. The same theory is put to the test on high mass plinths.

The coupling of the LP to the playing surface mentioned above is an attempt to use the mass of the platter coupled to the mass of the vinyl to try and make one rigid playing mass. A lot of people pay good money for record clamps, the aforementioned weight rings and some have vacuum hold platters to do the same thing using that approach.

I have to add something here. The UHQR wasn't an attempt to get more shipping. I apologize for offending the poster who wrote that...but that is just plain stupid. It was, and still is, the all out assault on the best quality pressing possible using vinyl as a medium. Many record companies who care have tried the same and record collectors recognize and value pressings of such quality.

The Classic Records 200gm SVP profile LPs took a page from UHQRs and used the flat profile and very heavy vinyl to attempt the same sort of quality. The profile of the LP was also an attempt to maximize imaging. Normal LPs are actually a downhill slope where careful azimuth adjustments are somewhat mitigated. Azimuth is important to guess what...imaging.

Other LPs have used heavy weight vinyl and a relatively flat profile. This is not rocket science and well understood. The UHQR used all of this plus a 2.5 minute pressing cycle on specially setup dedicated presses at JVC/Japan all on JVC's Super Vinyl. They aren't bad.

OK, back to our program...the flat profile eliminates the sloped playing surface, the azimuth adjustment is constant across the playing surface and maximizes the imaging. If you have the flat surface, with constant relative azimuth and a mass high enough that surface vibrations are mitigated you have done all you can to maximize your imaging.

If you don't care about quality imaging that's OK. JaS sorry if I get a little scratchy when I read stupidity. There is way too much of it on both sides of the Atlantic.

Ed

[kelvinMunson]

Ed, isn't it true that even 180 gram discs are not completely flat, since they should comply with the RIAA dimensional standards, (http://www.aardvarkmastering.com/riaa.htm), and therefore there is a minimum gradiant angl especified ?

[EdAInWestOC]

Ed, isn't it true that even 180 gram discs are not completely flat, since they should comply with the RIAA dimensional standards, (http://www.aardvarkmastering.com/riaa.htm), and therefore there is a minimum gradiant angl especified ?

Yes it is. Up to now the only totally flat LPs I am aware of are the MoFi UHQRs and the Classic Records 200gm SVP LPs. I am no expert on the subject but it caused problems for Classic when they had their 200gm SVPs pressed at RTI and MoFi gave up after 8 UHQRs.

I have never heard why MoFi gave up on the UHQR but it would be interesting to find out. The UHQR was stopped long before the original MoFi ran out of steam as a company.

Ed

[tomsdubs]

180g is a total marketing ploy, don't get me wrong i love how substantial they feel in the hand but as for sound better? Can't say that is the case. Mastering and production quality is what decides that assuming they don't try and cram too much music per side.

One good example was the Deftones reissues, '180g heavyweight vinyl' they said. Well let me tell you there is no way they are 180g, outright lie. All marketing, same goes for re-mastered. As soon as i read that it is a byword for passing and finding an original.

[kelvinMunson]

180g is a total marketing ploy, don't get me wrong i love how substantial they feel in the hand but as for sound better? Can't say that is the case. Mastering and production quality is what decides that assuming they don't try and cram too much music per side.

One good example was the Deftones reissues, '180g heavyweight vinyl' they said. Well let me tell you there is no way they are 180g, outright lie. All marketing, same goes for re-mastered. As soon as i read that it is a byword for passing and finding an original.

First off you say "Mastering and production quality is what decides ", ie the quality of the final product depends upon the mastering. I think it also depends on the quality of the vinyl used and the process controls in place... amongst other things.

and then you go on to state that re-mastering is a marketing ploy.

So what are you saying ?

and out of interest, how much did your Deftones re-issue weigh ?

[pivot]

(snip)......All marketing, same goes for re-mastered. As soon as i read that it is a byword for passing and finding an original.

Have you heard any of the better Mo-Fi releases? I tend to want "orignals" too but not all reissues are smoke and mirrors.

I am not convinced that the 180 or 200 gram weight in and of itself does much, but care taken through the whole production process can pay off.

[danieldust]

To me, the real irony is that so many modern LPs advertised as 180 gram are poorly mastered, suffering from non-fill, pressed off center or warped. All the extra weight in the world is meaningless if the record is flawed in some other way. But it's easier to just say it's 180 gram in big letters and hope no one notices the other stuff.

[GlassWolf]

180g vinyl by itself may not mean much, but most of my best records happen to be 180g pressings.. namely Mobile Fidelity Half-Speed Master Gold pressings. The main reason they are so good though, is the genius work done in the remastering of these albums from the original studio recordings, much like their original master gold CD counterparts. One thing I have seen with some 180g Japanese pressings of vinyl is that the play surface is recessed from the outer edge and inner portion of the albums, so that the bottom side of the album while on the turntable doesn't make contact with the platter, supposedly lengthening the lifespan of the records.

[GlassWolf]

To me, the real irony is that so many modern LPs advertised as 180 gram are poorly mastered, suffering from non-fill, pressed off center or warped. All the extra weight in the world is meaningless if the record is flawed in some other way. But it's easier to just say it's 180 gram in big letters and hope no one notices the other stuff.

I agree. One of my biggest pet peeves is actually the compression used on so many recordings these days. I really wish labels would stop doing that crap. If you don't know to what I refer, search wikipedia for "loudness wars"

[EdAInWestOC]

I agree with you guys in that its a shame that "180gm" has become what it is.

When the vinyl resurgence hit there was no doubt that there would be many manufacturers who played the part and produced poor product under the guise of an audiophile collectable. Fortunately I only have two recent 180gm LPs that I would put into the "me too" arena of poor manufacturers.

For the sake of being warned those LPs were Journey's Greatest Hits redone by Legacy and Traffic's Low Spark of High Heeled Boys on Universals "Back To Black" series.

The Journey LP was pressed well enough but the mastering was no better than MP3 level sound and I suspect that was exactly what it was. The LP comes with a coupon with a code to download the album in MP3. I suspect that they produced a single source for both the download and the vinyl. The sound of most of the tracks on the LP is poor to say the least. The pressing quality is not bad its just the sound.

The Traffic LP was also fairly well pressed but again the sound quality was nothing to bother buying the LP for. I would say that the Traffic was the better of the two LPs in question here. The sound of the Traffic LP was not objectionable but it has nothing to make it noteworthy. You can get much better sound picking up a clean used copy and save yourself some money.

The rest of the vinyl that I have bought has been very good. Most of the titles that I buy have been from Classic Records (when they were in business), Analogue Productions (or any of the labels produced by Chad Kassem's Acoustic Sounds), Mobile Fidelity Sound Labs, the stuff being pressed by Chad Kassem's Quality Record Pressings, quite a few titles from Rhino and a long list of other manufacturers that I have had success buying from.

If you ask this consumer the "180gm" thing has been a success so far and I have found quite a few reissues that are better than the original pressings. Saying that all original pressings are best is as dumb as saying everything with 180gm on it is junk. Neither is true and life is not that simple.

Unfortunately we are obliged to buy the LPs to see if they are what we hope they will be. Sometimes what I have bought is outstanding sometimes its not very good.

Hmmm...it sounds just like it was back when all those "best originals" were the source for music. Not much has changed. Its another year, LP production is up, and there are manufacturers you can trust and there are manufacturers you cannot.

Ed

[megatrends]

Well I must say I love the 180g records as they just feel quality and for all intent and purposes sound magnificent. I have a good ear for these things, there is a difference in sound quality. it just sounds "better" and I have no specific data or info to prove it other than it sounds better to my ears.

I got the Black Sabbath self titled LP on 180 g and am in love with it. It is quiet like a CD and the highs are perfect with crisp clear lows for a recording 40+ years old it is impressive.