0.1 x 0.2 stylus on Denon DL110

[goatbreath]

What stylus profile is it nearest..???

Is it finer than a 4x7 elliptical..

Or 3x7 or 2x7...Is it nearer a conical..I'm quite confused..

Could someone maybe explain to me..

[lini]

That's (talking of those 0.1 x 0.2) shank size in mm, btw. Tip itself should look very similar to the Ortofon level 20 (e.g. needle 20, 520(II)/VM Red, 2M Blue) and Audio Technica level 13 (e.g. ATN13, ATN130E/132EP) needles, i.e. a high quality true elliptical with good polish, and I'd assume it to be at least 0.3, maybe 0.2 x 0.7 mil. I've never seen any official tip dimensions for it, though - only the shank diemnsions you've already mentioned.

Greetings from Munich!

Manfred / lini

[goatbreath]

Thanks Lini..

[VinylIsTheBest]

That's (talking of those 0.1 x 0.2) shank size in mm, btw. Tip itself should look very similar to the Ortofon level 20 (e.g. needle 20, 520(II)/VM Red, 2M Blue) and Audio Technica level 13 (e.g. ATN13, ATN130E/132EP) needles, i.e. a high quality true elliptical with good polish, and I'd assume it to be at least 0.3, maybe 0.2 x 0.7 mil. I've never seen any official tip dimensions for it, though - only the shank diemnsions you've already mentioned.

Greetings from Munich!

Manfred / lini

I disagree with you. Those Denon cartridges have a very small rectangle elliptical stylus tip. My Denon DL-301 MKII has a tip size of .07x.14. It's so small you can barely see it. Way smaller than my Shure M97xE that has a .2x.7 tip. The first thing I noticed about the DL-301 MKII is it has almost no surface noise. Great for those used thrift albums.

[lini]

VITB: Check your specs - your 0.07 x 0.14 also are shank size in mm (just like on the DL160, btw). And yes, the stones of these two are of course even smaller than on the DL110, which is why I'd assume these two to already be 0.2 x 0.7 mil or maybe even a tad sharper. And it's pretty normal for these "special elliptical" class stones to look more like nice Hyperellipticals, FineLines et cetera - this also goes for the other examples I mentioned above (another one in that class would be the rectangular shank nudie of ADC's XLM MkIII/RSX, btw...). And it's not that rare that these are rather specified with shank than conventional tip dimensions. Probably as the tips didn't get much sharper than 0.2 mil anymore, so the shank size became a better indicator for further miniaturisation. Audio Technicas best "special elliptical" class stones were 0.06 x 0.06 mm square-shank nudies. Really, really tiny...

Anyway, if you play around a bit with Google's picture search, you might find the one or other closeup, so you can easily see what I mean...

Greetings from Munich!

Manfred / lini

P.S.: When comparing pics to estimate shank sizes, don't forget to keep the different cantilever sizes in mind. I.e., the same size stone would look a good bit tinier on for example the comparatively broad front end of a typical Ortofon alu cantilever compared to for example the smaller front end of a typical AT tapered alu cantilever.

[Doug G.]

One thing to remember is that the manufacturer cannot make the ride height determining radius smaller than a realistic size since to do so would have the stylus tip in the bottom of the groove which is not good.

Numbers such as .1 or .2 mil are realistic for the tracing radius since that is the front to back radius and it can be almost anything but the major or ride height radius needs to be around .7 mil. If you see numbers smaller than that, it is not designating the major radius.

Doug

[missan]

The width of the shank needs to be around 60µm, I´m guessing.
missan

[Ldg]

Yes, seperation between contact locations is nominally 25um, no matter what major radius, and that equates to exactly 18um true radius for a stylus which is formed from a spherical starting shape.

The whole issue of what the minor radius really is for ellipticals was recently discussed on a seperate thread, and there's cause to doubt it's ever actually much different from a spherical IF the stylus shape is formed from ground front/back flats on a spherical starting shape. IMO, that's cause to hold out for true nude ellipticals, or stick with quality nude sphericals. Or, if spec tracing distortion is the prime motivator, use a line contact type. But the whole picture of performance needs to be considered, not just the base stylus spec geometry.

My opinion is the quality of geometry, polish and the diamond itself matters more than the spec minor radius, goaty.

[goatbreath]

ld.............The Denon has a nude diamond,,they seem to be of good quality from pictures I have seen..I started the thread more because I didn't understand the spec 0.1 x 0.2..I just like to know what I have..The Denon sounds really special in my system...I take it the good polish is why there is so little surface noise..??

Vinyl is best............The M97xe has a bonded tip,,The DL110 has a nude..That is why the Shure looks bigger more than likely..

[Ldg]

...I take it the good polish is why there is so little surface noise..??

Yes, low friction has all manner of benefits, including low surface noise of certain nature.

[lini]

gb: Yup, bonded ones can be pretty big in comparison, especially the lower class ones with stainless steel or brass bushing.

missan: Yup, I guess that's why AT (or any other manufacturer I'm aware of) never came out with anything smaller than 0.06 x 0.06 mm. Btw, if you'd like to see one of these on yummy diamond cantilever (and quite a few more nice ones), go there http://www.classic-audio.info/tonabnehmer/tonabnehmertestaussagen.php and check the test40tonabnehmer.pdf - unfortunately the scan quality isn't that great, but still reasonably good...

Greetings from Munich!

Manfred / lini

[goatbreath]

Thanks folks,,,,,Lini,,It usually comes up translate when I get a page in German,,too bad it didn't for these cartridge reviews...But the stylus shots show how good the Denon styli are...

ld less friction,,HMM!!!..Not wanting to derail my own thread..It makes me think of wet playing though..

[bauzace50]

Hi,

there are two wonderful and revealing pictures of the stylus on the DL-110 in the Gallery here on the VE. Quite amazing work on the diamond AND the cantilever! Just go to "Gallery" and click on to "Denon". You will see two wonderful photos by Zeppelinn on the first page, be sure to scroll down sufficiently for both. Quite impressive, and incredibly so for a "budget" model.

Regards,
b50

[Ldg]

ld less friction,,HMM!!!..Not wanting to derail my own thread..It makes me think of wet playing though..

Yes, I believe that's how wet playing gets it done. It takes two to tango on a low friction stylus-groove interface, both the stylus and the groove surface. IME, wetting is great for vinyl where the groove has crackle noise due perhaps to changes in composition, or for whatever reason a lubricant seems to help.

Low friction styli generally go some way toward the same end, but don't quite work the miracle that wetting does on certain vinyl.