choosing my first turntable, what to do?

[LPM]

While it is true that the original 1200 was designed for hi-fi - because in the early 70's there was no DJ-thing going on so it couldn't be made for DJ.s.. - the 1210 was Technics answer to the needs of DJ's so the 1210 is designed for DJ's, with advanced pitch control etc that DJ's likes and needs. Technics simply adjusted their turntable to what the buying public used them for. But as I wrote, one can of course use the 1210 for hi-fi even if it is a DJ-version of what once was in it's original and first version a hi-fi turntable. It is the 1210 we discuss here...

I feel your wording here may be unintentionally confusing. It was the Mkll in 1978 that introduced changes that helped establish this originally hifi table as a firm DJ favourite with increased torque, better damping and slider pitch control. It also introduced Quartz control but all of these also served to improve its basic 1972 hifi credentials as well. The 1200 designation with the MKll simply represents 'silver' and the 1210 'black', not 'hifi' and 'DJ' respectively.

I think the key to remember with the SL1200 & 1210, is that DJ's use it for a reason. You need the record to stay bang in time in order for a mix to sound half decent, (modern DJ) you need great start up time for cueing (radio DJ) you need reliability (everyone), you need great sound quality. (everyone). the sl1200 series has all of these in spades. then if you want to improve it further you can.

This is about as good a summary as one could express about this TT.

If not sold by next week, I'll go pick up the Technics SL1210 MKII.
And after I've done that I'll save up to buy the Denon DL110 Cartridge this summer.

Wish you luck and let's know how it goes for you. As to the cartridge, the 110 will be fine but perhaps you should further review some of the forum threads here as there are other fine choices that may be better made after considering the sound you prefer and the rest of your system such as phono stage.

[dlaloum]

The Tehnics is designed for DJing, that was the focus when Technics made it.

Actually if you read the interviews of the original designer of the SL1200, it was designed as an audiophile turntable.

It had features that DJ's appreciated, and they therefore adopted it - so when it came time to update it with the Mk2 version, the feature set was adjusted to appeal to the DJ/Broadcast market.

But it clearly started its life as an audiophile TT - and it was close to the top of the Technics line up. (especially in its SL120 armless form, marketed to audiophiles who wanted to mount their choice of arm in it.)

bye for now

David

[bubba45]

I hope we haven't bored the poor OP into losing the will to live with round 343 of the eternal Technics DJ/Belt Drive vs Direct Drive debate.

To the OP - please don't disappear and do come back to us with your ongoing impressions of whichever turntable you end up with. If you go for a Technics SL1210 it's a great little deck IN MY HUMBLE OPINION .
It isn't to everyone's taste and occasionally sparks up these lengthy debates between members of this and other forums. The SL1210 is like the Linn LP12 in that they are the Marmite of the Turntable world - you either love 'em or hate 'em.
Again to the OP I have a variety of turntables - Belt Drive, Idler Drive and Direct Drive - all have their weaknesses but they all also have many strengths and I favour no particular method over another. The 1210 is an excellent all in one turntable and if you like it it will serve you well for many many tears to come.

Try it if you like and see what you think or try some other turntable but please let us know what you go for and what you think of it.

Bubba45

[AtomHeart]

Thanks for the many replies, and I'm not bored at all I just haven't got enough knowledge nor experience yet to take a side in this discussion.
All I know is that I have seen the Sl1200MKII or sl1210MKII getting lots of positive comments, also by hifi-listeners.
It is really my first own turntable (okay, I have worked with some crappy one my dad had in his days) so it's very likely I will absolutely love the Technics as it will be, in either way, a big improvement.

Also, it is good priced (that's why I'm afraid it could be sold by next week ) and the Technics aren't produced anymore, I think they'll only get more expensive after some time now.

And regarding the cartridge, I'll make sure to read enough threads and reviews about different kinds. But again, the 'technical' aspects don't ring a bell if you are a newbie that hasn't got enough knowledge yet. I can tell by reviews/threads wether it's a good cartridge or not, but I can't tell yet which one is going to suit best to my musical taste.

Maybe I'll give my setup and musical taste right away here, so I hopefully can get some alternatives for the Denon DL110 by you sound-experts

Amp: Marantz PM66SE KI (with phono input)
Speakers: Mission M32
Table: Possibly the Technics SL1210 MKII (let's hope )
Music: 60's - 70's rock such as Pink Floyd (!), Dire Straits, the Beatles... but also more recent releases such as Mark Lanegan, Foo Fighters, Black Keys, ...
(so in general, you could say I'm into rock music)

Greetings!

[cafe latte]

Thanks for the many replies, and I'm not bored at all I just haven't got enough knowledge nor experience yet to take a side in this discussion.
All I know is that I have seen the Sl1200MKII or sl1210MKII getting lots of positive comments, also by hifi-listeners.
It is really my first own turntable (okay, I have worked with some crappy one my dad had in his days) so it's very likely I will absolutely love the Technics as it will be, in either way, a big improvement.

Also, it is good priced (that's why I'm afraid it could be sold by next week ) and the Technics aren't produced anymore, I think they'll only get more expensive after some time now.

And regarding the cartridge, I'll make sure to read enough threads and reviews about different kinds. But again, the 'technical' aspects don't ring a bell if you are a newbie that hasn't got enough knowledge yet. I can tell by reviews/threads wether it's a good cartridge or not, but I can't tell yet which one is going to suit best to my musical taste.

Maybe I'll give my setup and musical taste right away here, so I hopefully can get some alternatives for the Denon DL110 by you sound-experts

Amp: Marantz PM66SE KI (with phono input)
Speakers: Mission M32
Table: Possibly the Technics SL1210 MKII (let's hope )
Music: 60's - 70's rock such as Pink Floyd (!), Dire Straits, the Beatles... but also more recent releases such as Mark Lanegan, Foo Fighters, Black Keys, ...
(so in general, you could say I'm into rock music)

Greetings!

For the money you want to spend if the Technics is gone, find another, but make sure it is in good condition. It is not a problem if it has been DJed, but check the arm has no play. To do this grasp the arm between your finger and thumb and gently see if there is any 'roll' play in the arm bearings. The spindle bearings (the platter) can be cheked by seeing if there is any rock in the platter, but if this is the only issue it is not a big problem as a new bearing is only 25 dollars. Make sure the strobe shows an even speed, if so you are fine.
I sort of agree with the dl110, but the are other cleaner options at the price IMO.
Google moding Technics sl1200 and you will see it is a TT that should last you a loooong time and many upgrades in the rest of your system.
Regards
CL

[AtomHeart]

Thanks for the tips CL! I'll make sure to check if everything is in good shape.
But it is sold by a DJ indeed, I can see he sells lots of DJ-gear (maybe because he terminated his hobby), so it can't be very defective I figured

[cafe latte]

No problem, happy to help . The motor cant wear out as there are no moving parts, the main spindle bearing is cheap so not a worry. The amount of use is normally obvious as the paint around the ON OFF switch gets discoulored and the arm is only 65 dollars last time I checked so if there is damaged here not the end of the world. All the same get the best example you can afford as if you can avoid it you dont want to be changing arms (if you need to PM me and I will help).
Get the turntable for the best price you can and then we can work out the best carts with the budget that is left. The dl110 is a great cart but there are other options I would consider and as the prices have risen the dl110 is not the bargin it once was IMO and the dl160 had a better stylus which is discontinued, but the dl110 is still is a nice sounding cart. If the turntable has been DJed it may be missing the rubber mat which is needed for hifi to help damp the platter and add needed mass. Budget around 25 dollars for this if it is missing.
Fingers crossed the turntable is still available and in good condition and not sold, let us know how it goes.
Regards
CL

[AtomHeart]

Agreed, I will look at various posibilities regarding the cartridge once I purchased the table! And I already have a 'heavy' rubber mat which used to be part of my dad's pioneer TT.

[cafe latte]

Agreed, I will look at various posibilities regarding the cartridge once I purchased the table! And I already have a 'heavy' rubber mat which used to be part of my dad's pioneer TT.

There is a lip on Technics platters at the edge which the Technics mat fits into so your Pioneer mat may not fit as it may ride over the lip. At a push you could I supose cut yours down, but for 25 dollars I would just get the correct mat.
Keep us posted
Regards
CL

[raphaelmabo]

There are of course alternatives to the DL-110... there's lots of cartridge options in the world, still - even if we live in a digital era. It is true that the DL-110 has raised it's price, to the level where the better DL-160 used to be (and the DL-160 costs even more...). But the DL-110 is still a great cartridge and especially great for 60's and 70's rock music, but also works well with soul, funk, rhythm and base. Also works with disco. It has a pleasing warmth to the upper bass.

The main drawback, as I see it, is that there are better cartridges out there that resolves the soundstage more, gives more 3D imagery. I noticed this when I had run the Ortofon OM 20 for many years and changed it to the DL-110. The OM 20 had a sound outside the speakers it was a bit "larger than life" sound, with the DL-110 the sound was in-between the speakers. Soundstage was smaller, more tight and not as spacious. Same speakers, same amplifer and same turntable - same everything except the cartridge. I ran it through a NAD PP1 phono-amp. But the DL-110 had deeper and more solid and well controlled bass, treble was more extended and sound was more rhythmic instead of the a bit too relaxed easy listening sound of the Ortofon OM 20. So overall the DL-110 was an upgrade.

I have already mentioned the Sumiko Pearl as an alternative to DL-110, and it is less expensive. I see the Pearl as a "middle road" between the OM 20 and the DL-110.

There are many that likes the Ortofon 2M Blue on the Technics, better than the Red. The Blue having a more even performance across the frequency range. More upfront than the OM 20 it replaces in the Ortofon line-up, more CD sounding than warm and cosy vinyl. Goldring 2x00-serie have already written about (2100 or 2200 the obvious contenders), with a sound close the Ortofon 2M's - but in my turntable and with my ears it was too bright and sharp in the treble and not a good tracker on worn out records, also prone to display surface noise.

Grado Gold is a popular cartridge, a bit "romantic" in character... suits your music taste well but it is not neutral sounding. Most famous for it's organic midband qualities. Costs less than the DL-110.

The Audio Technica AT95E is a solid budget classic and you can get 3 for the same price of one DL-110. Upfront, rhythmic, fun, not the last word in detail and finesse but concentrates on being musical rather than resolving the mix in great detail. Concentrates on the big brushes in the music rather than the finer details.

The Audio Technica AT120E is a more mature option and a little more expensive, but still not as expensive as the DL-110. The AT120E gives a smoother sound than the 95, and resolves details and imagery more - but still highly musical and involving. Main drawback is the midband, it is not as lovely as Grado (but then, few are...).

Cartridges is like wine, a personal choice...

[raphaelmabo]

Oh and in the cartridge thread already linked in this thread there seems to be at least one happy listener with a Technics and a Sumiko Pearl.. DL-110 digs deeper in the bass, but I have never felt the bass in the Pearl to be missing. DL-110 also resolves details in the treble better. But the Pearl tracks better. Plus the DL-110 is more expensive and it seems like the stylus can't be replaced in an easy way - but it can on the Pearl.

[cafe latte]

I have a dl160 which I will never sell, but my stantons are better sounding carts. The 881 with the Jico is better as it is a bit wider, but the 681 again with the jico stylus is smooth and neutral with good bass and a very enjoyable cart and cheap if you buy a 680 and then fit a Jico stylus. The dl160 is a bit too larger than life and the bass is a bit warm, nice all the same but not accurate. I too used to recommend dl160s for Technics as they give a taise of MC at bargin prices, but that was when the dl160 was cheap and avialable and prices have risen a lot and now you can only get the not as good dl110. Also since I recommended the dl160 I have tried a few other carts on my Technics including my Decca super gold (about a grands worth of cart) which is renound for not working properly on many types of arm, but it sounds amazing on the Technics. The Technics arm is a lot more versitile than many give it credit and will work well with a huge number of carts including some rather special ones as I and others on here on VE with Technics have discovered. It is why I said to the OP get the turntable first, then he know how much he has left for the cart.
Regards
CL

[AtomHeart]

Okay, here's an update for you people!
Few moments ago, I went to get the Technics SL1210MKII (second-hand), I examined it while I was with the seller (who happened to sell lot's of used DJ stuff as a lucrative hobby!) and couldn't find anything dramatically wrong with this turntable (of course, some scratches here and there...).

It seemed to hold its tempo perfectly (which it is known for), everything about it felt very very solid and heavy-duty, and of-course it's a beautiful player.

Okay, enough talk, let me upload some photographs of it (taken by my mobile phone, so it isn't very good quality )

















Price paid: 345 euros (= +- 430 US dollars)

Pluspoints:
- Works perfectly
- The body, platter, tonearm is very neat with very few scratches & stains
- Good price/quality
- Came with a heavy rubber Technics mat

Minus points:
- The dustcover has many little scratches (and some heavier scratches upon the 'bowl' which is situated above the counterweight mechanism)
- Some stains (not to sever tough)
- Came without the element (so have to get me a Technics-element)

Overall I'm quite happy with my purchase!

Greetings!

[youngdand]

looks good, and you have 155 euros for a nice cart + Headshell. I was thinking, that maybe a nagaoka MP-11 or MP-110 might suit it well or even further up the line. If you can find one cheap enough the MP-11 boron is a fantastic cart.

I had the MP 50 which was the top of the line cart, and it was superb, but i sold it on to fund an upgrade, and switched to Moving Coil Carts.