choosing my first turntable, what to do?

[AtomHeart]

Thanks for the replies, guys!

I found a Technics SL1210 MK2 on the second-hand market, I hope it isn't sold by next week, then I'll go take a look!

But, I do have a question concerning this table... Everytime I google it, it seems to be a table that is mostly used by DJ's. Why is this? What's the difference between what people call a 'hifi-audiophile' table and a 'dj' table? (I already know that DJ tables are mostly direct driven)

Anyone who has some arguments against buying the Technics SL1210mk2, or is it truly a magnificent piece of musicality?

Also, I envy those of you who grew up in the vinyl-era, the era with 60's - 70's rock. I'm a huge Pink Floyd fan and recently I bought some of their (original) vinyls in good shape. So this is why I'm tumbled into the whole turntable-spirit

Greetings!

[duficity]

It is used by DJ's because it is readily available, reasonably priced, built like a rock, dead reliable, maintains speed and has just about instant startup to speed, within 1/4 revolution of the platter. That way a DJ can put the needle on at a certain place, and just push the button and start the record in less than 1/2 second. Much easier than trying to line stuff up on a moving platter and hope for the best.

Oh, and you can back scratch with it.

[raphaelmabo]

The Tehnics is designed for DJing, that was the focus when Technics made it. It is a professional DJ player. It has a fast direct drive with a high torque motor and it also comes with a pitch control which is important for DJ's. Just put a DJ cartridge on and go on scratching... It isn't primarily designed for hi-fi but of course can you use it as a hi-fi turntable also. It is a solid and reliable construction and easy to find parts if it breaks down. It is much sought after. The high torque direct drive can theoretically cause distortion to the sound (belt driven turntables are theoretically better for hi-fi because the motor is longer away from the plattern and as thus has less impact on the sound) - but in real life I believe that you will find the sound of the Technics pleasing, especially with a Denon DL-110 cartridge which is my standard recommendation for this turntable if you wish to use it for hi-fi rather than DJing. The Denon DL-110 will suit your musical taste just fine.

[youngdand]

DJ's use it quite simply as its a well engineered, reliable machine that keeps great time. esential for mixing 2 records, oh and the pitch control is good for DJ's too.

You will want to dispense of the dj cart, and by a more hifi cart and you certainly wont cue records up by pulling them backwards. hifi stylus are more delicate.

a denon DL-110 will go fantastic with the table and will give you a sund that will rival decks many times its price. then if you need to upgrade from there, i would be looking at amplification and speakers.

[youngdand]

@ raphaelmabo Snap!

[AtomHeart]

Thanks again for the replies!

I already had in mind to put an Ortofon 2M Red cartridge on it as it has many many good reviews (and it's not too expensive). But you seem to be very pleased about the Denon DL110, I'll certainly consider this!

And indeed, I can't hear any difference between a (good) direct drive table and a belt drive... maybe it's because I'm no 'audiophile' yet Or let's just say I'm an audiophile who is on a tight budget (still studying )!

[kelvinMunson]

If you are considering a 2M Red, suggest you check out this thread.........

viewtopic.php?f=19&t=47627

[raphaelmabo]

The Ortofon 2M Red is a nice cartridge, but a bit lightweight. The Denon DL-110 has better bass response plus less dry sounding, more warmth to the mid bass. I have seen many complaining about the Red on a Technics, Red not suitable for the Technics tone arm. You may also consider the Sumiko Pearl which is the cartridge that I have mounted now. It's less expensive than the Denon, but very nice. Quite similar to the Denon sound in many respects, but trading some of the up'n go sound for more detailed soundstage, a good tracker and a neutral and well balanced sound. I have seen some commented on the Pearl as "boring" but I believe they haven't played in the cartridge fully, it needs 30 hours at least to loosen up. I have also used the Goldring 2200 but I am disappointed about it, sure it is highly musical, fast and dancing away with tuneful bass, lots of details, but treble was too harsh and splashy for me and I found it sensitive to static electricity and didn't tracked so well on worn out records.

[AtomHeart]

Indeed! I just read the tread that disses the 2M Red. Quite an eye-opener!

(I read positive reactions a while ago while reading a tread suggesting to upgrade a project debut iii with an Ortofon 2M Red, maybe it's just not a good match for the Technics)

Okay... I'll be focusing on the Denon DL110 (or the Sumiko Pearl as suggested by Raphael) then! (Damn, this forum is quite a help for newbies!)

[cafe latte]

The Tehnics is designed for DJing, that was the focus when Technics made it. It is a professional DJ player. It has a fast direct drive with a high torque motor and it also comes with a pitch control which is important for DJ's. Just put a DJ cartridge on and go on scratching... It isn't primarily designed for hi-fi but of course can you use it as a hi-fi turntable also. It is a solid and reliable construction and easy to find parts if it breaks down. It is much sought after. The high torque direct drive can theoretically cause distortion to the sound (belt driven turntables are theoretically better for hi-fi because the motor is longer away from the plattern and as thus has less impact on the sound) - but in real life I believe that you will find the sound of the Technics pleasing, especially with a Denon DL-110 cartridge which is my standard recommendation for this turntable if you wish to use it for hi-fi rather than DJing. The Denon DL-110 will suit your musical taste just fine.

Not really true as the Technics was nopt designed for DJ, but was designed for hifi use and later adopted by DJs. Also what you said about the direct drive motor is again untrue and it is also untrue that belt is theoretically better for hifi. The Technics wow and flutter speed stability and rumble are all better than many belt drive turntables, infact the Technics specs are hard to beat full stop. Belt drive turntables became the norm for hifi not because they were better, but because they were far cheaper to make than idler drive and direct drive, infact old well restored idlers out perform many much newer belt drives. In the 80s the untruths about direct drive were spread to help the home (UK) hifi market. I actually think there are excellent examples of all methods of drive and the Technics is a great example of a well performing direct drive. I also own a Commonwealth ider drive with a 12 inch arm (the arm cost almost what my Technics did) and I have to say the idler sounds different rather than better.
I also have a quite a few carts that I use on both turntables. The best is my Decca super gold which just sings on the Technics, but as all Deccas are it is sit on the edge of your seat stuff. My Denon dl160 is a nice cart, but a bit warm and bloated but nice all the same. My Stanton 881 with a jico stylus is amazing, the treble is super clean and it has a very wide soundstage and clean deep bass. If you can fid an old 881 or an 890al and give it a new jico stylus you will have an amazing performer (890al is DJ cart which is electrically the same, but ONLY the al version not later ones like the fs, with the 890al ditch the DJ stylus and just fit the same jico 881 stylus). The Stanton 681ee is another great cart for the money that works very well on Technics, but unfortunatly was recently discontinued, but again you can get the 680 dj version and fit a hifi Jico stylus as the bodys of the carts are identical. The 680/681 are a very smooth sounding cart and very accurate, great vaule for money and again nice on the Technics. Sure m97xe is a nice cart but a bit rolled off in the treble and have recently suffered quality control issues, all the same mine gets a turn from time to time.
Regards
CL

[AtomHeart]

If not sold by next week, I'll go pick up the Technics SL1210 MKII.
And after I've done that I'll save up to buy the Denon DL110 Cartridge this summer.

Thanks for the helping replies, guys! I'll keep you up-to-date!

[raphaelmabo]

Café Latte, I disagree with the views you express.
While it is true that the original 1200 was designed for hi-fi - because in the early 70's there was no DJ-thing going on so it couldn't be made for DJ.s.. - the 1210 was Technics answer to the needs of DJ's so the 1210 is designed for DJ's, with advanced pitch control etc that DJ's likes and needs. Technics simply adjusted their turntable to what the buying public used them for. But as I wrote, one can of course use the 1210 for hi-fi even if it is a DJ-version of what once was in it's original and first version a hi-fi turntable. It is the 1210 we discuss here...

The Technics is an unusual direct drive turntable in the sense that the plattern is designed to be a part of the motor and the integrated thinking with the Technics helped in getting it to achieve low wow and flutter. But turntable design is not only about wow and flutter, there are several factors that affects the sound and there are different schools about how to achieve the best performance. Main drawback of direct drive is motor vibration, with a belt drive the vibration from the motor is damped by the belt.

Many japanese players favors direct drive, but a good working direct drive is expensive to make and in this sense yes it is less expensive to make a good belt drive than a good direct drive, because the belt driven construction in itself cures some problems. The most advanced belt drivers has the motor pulley de-coupled from the chassi, so it is external, just to lower vibration and distortion. It is also about torque, a belt drive can have less torque than a direct drive and this helps the sound quality. Now, take Notthingham Analogue for example - they are strongly believers in low torque motors, their motors has so little torque you have to spin up the plattern by hand! They claim their ultra low torque motor gives the lowest resonance and distortion and has less impact on the sound than higher torque motors - because low torque = low vibration. Direct drive turntables needs to have higher torque than belt drive because they drive the plattern directly. A drawback of belt driven turntables is their slower start-up times - that is why they are not used by DJ's... and pitch control can't be as exact as with direct drive turntables. But direct driven turntables needs more expensive motors. Another drawback of a belt driven turntable is that the belt itself needs to be replaced sooner or later... it doesn't last forever. An old belt has negative impact on the sound because it sits less tight. On Thorens, the belt is inexpensive but it can be more expensive for other makers. But you are of course correct that there are both good and bad direct drive designs as well as belt driven designs. And when it comes to turntables, there are many different schools out there when it comes to how to construct the best turntable. Just compare the Rega-Pro-Ject thinking with Thorens classic thinking (solid plint - heavy plattern vs spring suspension) regarding on how to lower resonances from low frequencies.. But saying that one philosophy is "untrue" suggests that there is some universal general truth to turntable design and just compare the turntables and we can see that here is more to it than that... And if you like direct drives, please do. My post wasn't intended to offend anyone.

[cafe latte]

Café Latte, I disagree with the views you express.
While it is true that the original 1200 was designed for hi-fi - because in the early 70's there was no DJ-thing going on so it couldn't be made for DJ.s.. - the 1210 was Technics answer to the needs of DJ's so the 1210 is designed for DJ's, with advanced pitch control etc that DJ's likes and needs. Technics simply adjusted their turntable to what the buying public used them for. But as I wrote, one can of course use the 1210 for hi-fi even if it is a DJ-version of what once was in it's original and first version a hi-fi turntable. It is the 1210 we discuss here...

The Technics is an unusual direct drive turntable in the sense that the plattern is designed to be a part of the motor and the integrated thinking with the Technics helped in getting it to achieve low wow and flutter. But turntable design is not only about wow and flutter, there are several factors that affects the sound and there are different schools about how to achieve the best performance. Main drawback of direct drive is motor vibration, with a belt drive the vibration from the motor is damped by the belt.

Many japanese players favors direct drive, but a good working direct drive is expensive to make and in this sense yes it is less expensive to make a good belt drive than a good direct drive, because the belt driven construction in itself cures some problems. The most advanced belt drivers has the motor pulley de-coupled from the chassi, so it is external, just to lower vibration and distortion. It is also about torque, a belt drive can have less torque than a direct drive and this helps the sound quality. Now, take Notthingham Analogue for example - they are strongly believers in low torque motors, their motors has so little torque you have to spin up the plattern by hand! They claim their ultra low torque motor gives the lowest resonance and distortion and has less impact on the sound than higher torque motors - because low torque = low vibration. Direct drive turntables needs to have higher torque than belt drive because they drive the plattern directly. A drawback of belt driven turntables is their slower start-up times - that is why they are not used by DJ's... and pitch control can't be as exact as with direct drive turntables. But direct driven turntables needs more expensive motors. Another drawback of a belt driven turntable is that the belt itself needs to be replaced sooner or later... it doesn't last forever. An old belt has negative impact on the sound because it sits less tight. On Thorens, the belt is inexpensive but it can be more expensive for other makers. But you are of course correct that there are both good and bad direct drive designs as well as belt driven designs. And when it comes to turntables, there are many different schools out there when it comes to how to construct the best turntable. Just compare the Rega-Pro-Ject thinking with Thorens classic thinking (solid plint - heavy plattern vs spring suspension) regarding on how to lower resonances from low frequencies.. But saying that one philosophy is "untrue" suggests that there is some universal general truth to turntable design and just compare the turntables and we can see that here is more to it than that... And if you like direct drives, please do. My post wasn't intended to offend anyone.

Were is this vibration you are talking about and this distortion (measurements)? The motor may well be under the platter on the Technics but it is a 16 pole inductance motor, in other words there is no physical contact between the two halfs of the motor. How the Technics motor works is to give a gradual push as and when needed as controlled by the feedback loop to the spinning platter. Belt drives have their own issues, for a start they all have a physical connection between the motor and the platter (the belt). Belt drive motors also have their own bearings which of course are noisy and the bigger the motor the more the bearings are an isssue so it is understandable the Belt drive TT manufactures try to get the motor as far away as possible from the platter and make the motor as weak as possible. The Technics motor of course does not have its own bearings as half of the motor is mounted on the main board and the other half on the underside of the platter so it sort of shares the main bearing not adding its own noise. The other issue with belt drives is the belt, apart it transmitting noise it makes noise of its own by friction of the belt on the platter and it pulls a sidways force on the platter bearings which is not a good thing either. I was not offended by your comments, but if you believe that belt drives are more suited to hifi you are wrong for soo many reasons. No drive system is better as ALL methods of drive have issues. If it were all about vibration and low torque motors, people would not be dumping their belt drives and searching out an old idler instead (I wont ever be selling my idler), not to mention the Technics sp10 direct drive (I think Jas has one). Your quote.."belt driven turntables are theoretically better for hi-fi because the motor is longer away from the plattern and as thus has less impact on the sound" is just a bit too tidy as unfortunatly it is not that simple and if it was it would be easier for all of us.
No offense meant or taken
I am aware that the sl1200 has become more DJ over the years, but the basic design was not DJ it was hifi (location of motor ect).
Regards
CL
Edit.. this is worth a read..http://www.kabusa.com/myth4.htm

[youngdand]

I think the key to remember with the SL1200 & 1210, is that DJ's use it for a reason. You need the record to stay bang in time in order for a mix to sound half decent, (modern DJ) you need great start up time for cueing (radio DJ) you need reliability (everyone), you need great sound quality. (everyone). the sl1200 series has all of these in spades. then if you want to improve it further you can.

As you can see from my signature, i don't even have one, but i had 2 when i used to DJ in my younger days, which i sold for some ridiculously stupid price and wish to god i still had at least one of.

you cannot go wrong with this turntable, and going back to the initial post, this will blow all the decks you listed out of the water, and probably in the next tier up. A good Cart, and even later down the line a new arm of your liking or an improved power supply and you will still be happy.

I would, and proably will at some point purchase an sl1200 to revisit the sound with an audiophile hat on, but i love the sound of my ariston too which is a quite competent belt drive machine. I am sure there will be a word of difference between them. but i am also certain that the probably both out do each other in certain areas.