Your thoughts on linear tracking tt's

[Fishtails]

Well my opinion without going into quantum physics or anything ( not hassling,mjust amazed at some of the technical knowledge out there).

My opinion is,they are nice and fun, dont skip much and are kinda groovy.

I do prefer the standard style though:)

I have never been able to tell the difference in sound in relation to tracking or overhang.

It is my opinion that when you are dealing with any sort of friction that something will be out of kilter somewhere.

Energy is never lost...just transformed.

[keiko5]

I enjoy my linear trackers, not because I think they sound better, or even necessarily look better. I've had some great sounding, great looking swing arm turntables. To me its just a matter of choice, Ford vs. Chevy, ale vs lager, brunette vs. redhead. Personally, I really like the variety and creativity behind each design. However, when it comes to a discussion of tracking error, a good linear tracker like my Mitsubishi LT30 has tracking error less than 0.05 deg, and error is zero about once each revolution. In comparison, the Denon 59L which was a direct competitor of these machines has tracking error "within 2.5 deg." and achieves zero error at only two points. Clearly, the advantage goes to the linear tracker. Now, some will say they can hear when an LT makes its correction, while others say they can hear tracking error. I've come to the personal conclusion that tracking error within reason is inaudible to my ears, as demonstrated by my Sony PS-Q7 which has a 7" pivoted arm but sounds just fine.

The one area where linear trackers have a clear advantage over pivoted arm turntables is anti-skating (or lack of). Skating forces are applied at the stylus, but even in the best pivoted arms the anti-skating correction is applied to the arm. And even then it is usually just a general compromise. Linear trackers need no anti-skating. For me, how to apply the correct anti-skating is an unsolvable problem, so not having to deal with it in the first place is one of the main reasons I have gravitated to linear tracking turntables.

[kelvinMunson]

[quote="Fishtails"]I have never been able to tell the difference in sound in relation to tracking or overhang.quote]

Does that men that you don't bother setting up cartridge alignment, for example using a protractor, or are you saying that you can't actually hear mistracking when the cartridge is mis-aligned ? Have you ever tried setting up using a test record ?

[vinylrayk]

Excellent Post !!!

Would you also care to put on your flame proof suit ( ) and explain your objections (theoretical/objective or subjective, or both) to air bearing LT arms?

Enquiring minds want to know!

thanks

David

OK, here goes:



I have no theoretical objections to air bearing LT's. A most obvious advantage is that the lack of a servo de-fuses all anti-servo arguments that go to the effect of "it has to be in error for the servo to work". Properly executed, the air bearing LT should truly have zero tracking error at all times. I have not owned an air bearing LT, but I suspect it should do well in regards to my topic of FM distortion (flutter effects) and the inherent advantage that LT's have, as explained in my earlier post. The tracking error argument has been beaten to death and I went out of my way to not resurrect that. What I do want to do is bring to light an interesting, and not well understood, geometry related quirk that LT's have because of their lack of offset angle.

My concerns with air bearing LT's are the difficulty in dealing with the large amount of horizontal moving mass, and training the the cartridge leads so as to prevent the wiring from restricting free movement across the record surface.

Being a DIY'r and inveterate tinkerer I have found it easier, and more within my budget, to re-engineer an existing marketed design. The Revox Linatrack has always intrigued me, I would like to play with one sometime.

I would very much like all VE members who own air bearing LT's, or any LT, to run the tests I have described and post the results here on the forum.

[vinylrayk]

Hi,
just a little observation on my own (long departed) Rabco straight line tonearm, fitted to one AR XA turntable:

It was an inconvenient fit, which looked like a patch-up job.

bauzace50

I agree. Aesthetically, there is nothing visually nicer or more elegant looking than a crisp, clean conventional pivoted arm. My favorite look is still the classic SME 3009 - like a precision laboratory scale.

However, you have missed the whole point of my post.

I said:

"I've learned a benefit of linear tracking arms that I have not seen much discussed before. Paradoxically, it is related to offset angle geometry but has nothing to do with tracking error!"

Since you didn't refer to any of my topic in your post, I'm assuming you are ignoring it or didn't understand it. I never said anything about tracking error. The rest of your post dredged up a very old argument on servo controls that's been beaten to death. Servo controls CAN be made to work well, and with imperceptible error. If you've ever been on a modern commercial jetliner, then you have entrusted your life to the smooth operation of many servo control systems (and without spilling your drink)!

...to make it the province of select few princely practicioners.

bauzace50

Your comment could be misconstrued as a bit condescending, but I am a gentleman and will assume that you didn't mean that. I am not a person of princely means, but I CAN afford and am able to make a servo LT work well.

[bauzace50]

Hi vinylraik,

my comments responded only to the starting premise of the thread ("Your thoughts on linear tracking tt's"). These comments did NOT take your comments in consideration. I addressed ONLY the initial question.

The projected cost of calibrating recordings with playback equipment, in a dedicated manner, is my way of imagining such a costly system. This had NO relation to your comments, either.

No offense meant, and I made sure of replying in the spirit of the initial premise, with "My thoughts".

Regards, and best wishes,
bauzace50

[dlaloum]

I have the HFN test record and I have both Pivoted and Linear tracking tables - my observation, without a comparative measurement - is that neither experience problems.. BUT it is not a fair comparison, as the pivoted arm is a servo arm, and the damping controlls the resonance VERY effectively. I do hear the flutter effect when setting up some cartridges and measuring compliance - but I have not attempted a direct comparison in the effect between the two tables/arms ...

I will test that and perhaps post the resulting recordings when I get the chance/time (obviously using the same cartridge in both tables)

bye for now

David

[PeterW.]

Please note the interpolations.

Hi people

Having just found a kenwood linear tracking turntable in perfect working order on the side of the road I was hoping to get your various opinions on these.

Linear vs standard?

Linear - always. My first TT (over 30 years ago) was a Dual 1219. And knowing no better, I stacked and so forth. When that TT bit the dust, I moved to a belt-drive Pioneer on which I mounted a Rabco SL-8E. Some of you will remember this as the massive clunker driven by a C-type battery. The difference was remarkable. When that TT was stolen (good luck to the thief keeping it running), I went directly to an HK/Rabco ST-8. This was in 1978, and that TT is still running strong. Since then, I have also acquired a Revox B790 which, if anything is better than the HK. Quieter, more stable, and easier to use. There is a concern with the Revox TTs inasmuch as the alignment kit required to change cartridges is stupidly expensive these days. However, the best Revox repair shop in the US, JM Technical Arts has a solution at a very reasonable price. Contact information below:
___________________
We produce a cartridge install/align kit for $65.00 plus shipping that has
all the necessary parts and guages.

Jack Clark
JM Technical Arts
2044 Sanford Dr.
Mt. Juliet TN 37122
(615) 754-8323
____________________

It all seems fine to me with sound reproduction excellent.

My thoughts on linear TTs are based on difficulty of maintenance and reliablility. The SL-8E was a kluge that I found a challenge. Like that little girl, when it was good, it was very, very good. When it was bad it was just awful. The ST-8 was/is a wonderful TT. The little rubber tire on which the arm travels (that has a tendency to rot after 30 years or so) may be replaced with a neoprene or soft silicon industrial O-ring for a few pennies and perhaps an hour of very fussy work. The Revox, on the other hand is a joy and a pleasure to service and maintain (with the kit).

I have found that the other linear TT makers out there from Denmark to the Pacific Rim are fussy, troublesome, often impossible to maintain unless one is a rare combination of both clever and lucky. Once upon a time I observed a linear TT with an air pump - the arm ran on a cushion of air. Clever. Not my speed, however.

What are the benefits of linear tracking if any?

Basic single benefit: less tracking error means the stylus most closely duplicates the path of the original cutting head - so to the extent that the tracking error is reduced, reproduction is enhanced and record wear is also reduced. Keep in mind that even with an expensive TT, the single largest cost involved is the software (vinyl) - not the hardware. Whatever helps to preserve the software is worthwhile.

I am in the process of restoring another HK/Rabco unit. The son-in-law has the ST-8 "on loan", I will make that permanent if I get the new one going. Rubber tire of course, and the lift solenoid may need to be rewound if it is not binding just from dirt. I keep spare arms and I do have the alignment jig for this beast as well - all very important.

And that leads to the last point - linear TTs, unless they use P-Mount cartridges or proprietary units (such as B&O, one reason to avoid that TT) can be a bear to set up. And if poorly set up, can do rapid and severe damage. Make sure you have all the necessary material and understand the process before starting in on one.

Enjoy!

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA

[PeterW.]

David[/quote]

Being a DIY'r and inveterate tinkerer I have found it easier, and more within my budget, to re-engineer an existing marketed design. The Revox Linatrack has always intrigued me, I would like to play with one sometime.

I would very much like all VE members who own air bearing LT's, or any LT, to run the tests I have described and post the results here on the forum.

You likely would enjoy the Revox. I just took two non-working units, switched parts between them to get one very stellar working unit and sold the left-overs for more than I paid for the two donors. Effectively, I took a B790 base and a much later B795 arm. Replaced a few caps on the audio board and was done. As to tweaking the arm itself, cleanliness is the key. There is not a great deal to 'do' in terms of mods that will be any better than the base Swiss engineering. And a tiny drop of PTFE-based synthetic oil will restore the dashpot indefinitely. On a lint-free spreader around the top of the cylinder.

My personal experience with LTTs is that they are worth the trouble. And as long as I can keep the two that I have running, I will do so.

Aside: At this point, I can lay claim to an all-Revox system: B790 to A720 to A722 to Piccolo speakers, and including a B225 CD, B215 cassette and A77 RtR, got all the (vintage) bases covered.

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA

[lensmanMK2]

indeed! is that function that you sell of the highest order? for lt-30 and such?

[PeterW.]

LensmanMK2 - ???

Not sure what your comment means or even if it was directed in my direction. I mention Jack Clark because he is a *gentleman* with whom I have done business in the past and who makes a kit that makes the Revox turntable into a simple TT to operate rather than an exotic. And, as it happens at a price that is signifcantly lower than the (stupidly) expensive OEM kits out there.

And, I find HK/Rabcos to be neat bits of kit that appeal to my machinest past and also meet every aesthetic need - and happen to function at the highest order.

Given that easily restored examples of either TT mentioned above may be found very nearly every day at the $500 range - and that either TT is easily the match (when properly restored and fully functional) of _ANY other TT/Arm combination out there at any price, I don't really think I am selling much other than 40 years of experience and a modicum of common sense.

Or would you care to clarify your comment?

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA

[keiko5]

PeterW wrote: "I have found that the other linear TT makers out there from Denmark to the Pacific Rim are fussy, troublesome, often impossible to maintain unless one is a rare combination of both clever and lucky."

Interesting observation. I currently have a Harman Kardon ST8, a Revox B791, a Mitsubishi LT-30, a Yamaha PX3, a Mitsubishi LT-5V, a Technics SL-10, a B&O Beogram 4004 and a 4002, and a groovy little Sony PS-Q7. I've also had two LT-20s and a Beogram 8000. Every one of these beautiful turntables operate flawlessly in all modes and sound superb, so I must be very lucky an/or very clever. In fact, the Revox and HK are currently out of rotation because I am enjoying the others so much.

I may not have the knowledge base that PeterW built from being a machinist and 40 years of experience, so excuse my ignorance when I say that everyone of my turntables has its virtures as well as its shortcomings. However they are all wonderful in their own right, as were the many fine pivot-armed turntables I have owned and hope to own. The B&O 4000 series of turntables are especially dear to my heart, and I have owned at least one since 1983 (save for a short period several years ago). And I must say that I've not yet lost a precious record to the ravages of a pivoted arm.

I've been a stereophile and turntable junkie since 1972 (hey, that's 40 years ago!) and yet, even with all the equipment that I've enjoyed over the years, I've still not learned how to be as dismissive of such broad ranges of turntables as PeterW has. Peter, YOU DA MAN!!

Kevin

[PeterW.]

"Dismissive" - I guess that is apt under the circumstances. Once upon a time I was taken to task in public for making the remark that *to my taste* very little classical music of interest was composed after about 1830 or so. Not "NONE" and not "BAD" - just not to my interest. When challenged directly, my answer was that an entire lifetime could be spend with a few dozen works of JSB - much less the entire repetoire. That made the point I was trying to make. Why struggle with music that I do not, will not, nor can I be made to enjoy when there is SO MUCH otherwise?

Conventional turntables do not interest me. I am sure there are fine ones out there and I have used some of them. They are simply not 'keepers'. Pacific rim audio equipment does not interest me - there is enough US/Euro stuff out there to fascinate me for the rest of my natural life and beyond. Pacific-rim automobiles do not interest me. I have driven many as rentals while traveling, and briefly owned a Hyundai Diesel Galloper - which was a fine vehicle for the time, place and purpose (something that could jump a 12" (35cm) curb in an emergency, stay cool inside at 120F outside and hold two people and two dogs) though not US-legal so I had to leave it behind.

I enjoy things made from conventional parts using intuitive, transparent technology - I enjoy vacuum tube equipment because of that - although my inventory is about equally split on the electronics side between SS and VT. I enjoy vintage equipment as it is what I came up with and saw it 'when new'.

So, yes, I am dismissive of many large classes of equipment, regions of the world, types of food (although the only two items I *will not* eat under any conditions including a gun to my head would be any form of pudding or any form of yam or sweet potato), literature, music, and many more things.

In the immortal words of Bill Staines: All God's children have a place in the choir - some sing low, some sing higher - and the porcupine sings by himself.

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA

[lensmanMK2]

Not sure what your comment means or even if it was directed in my direction.

neither do i peter.. ive had the gibberish come up on a few forums i post on,strangely enough its always happened when i use my phone to post..so it seems ive got some kind of malware on my phone.