Recommend me a 2 channel amp (new or used) for $3,200

[Aural Addict]

And they wonder why they are Burning through cash like its fire wood in the arctic... Little innovation (until just the last two years) and horrible service. Can't make money is you can't bring in new customers while alienating current ones....

[jackfish]

You will over power those speakers.

Say what?

[Aural Addict]

You will over power those speakers.

Say what?

I guess I should've given a better explanation... You won't over power them spec wise, but Focals are very forward speakers and Cambridge and other upper mid level products like Rotel, etc are relatively conservative w/ power ratings, unlike Denon, mid and low level Marantz, Yamaha, etc...
What I noticed is that while they sounded good, they seemed a bit forced. Just cause a speaker can handle 200 or 250 watts (no audible difference in the two ratings), doesn't mean they should be fed that much. At least that's my experience.
I need to not speak in such broad terms, I just didn't want to write a novella...

[jackfish]

To reach the sound level desired from a given loudspeaker requires essentially the same amount of power whether the amp is rated at 50 watts or 300 watts. Just because one moves to a more powerful amp does not mean one will necessarily be feeding the loudspeakers more power. It does mean however that the more powerful amp will have more power in reserve to handle transient peaks in the program material without undue waveform distortion. Your description of loudspeakers sounding a bit forced from using a more powerful amplifier doesn't seem consistent with what should be observed driving speakers to the same sound level with one particular amp and another that is significantly more powerful.

[Tako]

Cambridge and other upper mid level products like Rotel, etc are relatively conservative w/ power ratings, unlike Denon, mid and low level Marantz, Yamaha, etc...

"Conservative" specs are often just as deceptive as "generous" ones: Manufacturers will often provide "conservative" specs into an 8 ohm load to give the impression the amps doubles power into a 4 ohm load. The reality probably is that almost NO amplifier actually does this , but a lot of audiophiles think an amp that is 100 watt into 8 ohms and 200 watts into 4 is better, or somehow more stable than one that has 150 watts into 8 ohms and 200 into 4.

Some brands also "play" a little with the measurements: The Denon amps I mentioned provide : 20hz-20khz specs for the 8ohm power rating, and @1 kKz specs for the 4 ohm rating to give the illusion of doubling its output power into a 4 ohm load.

[JoeE SP9]

In the budget level the OP is considering specsmanship is probably not a consideration. Sure your Denon is guilty of it and probably a lot of other "mid-fi" gear. However, there are plenty of amplifiers that actually double down with power output. All of them have one thing in common. None of them are inexpensive.

If they have doubled 2 Ohm or even 1 Ohm ratings is that specsmanship? There are more amplifiers that double down than you may be aware of. Krell, Boulder and Jeff Rowland come to mind.

[pivot]

"Conservative" specs are often just as deceptive as "generous" ones: Manufacturers will often provide "conservative" specs into an 8 ohm load to give the impression the amps doubles power into a 4 ohm load. The reality probably is that almost NO amplifier actually does this , but a lot of audiophiles think an amp that is 100 watt into 8 ohms and 200 watts into 4 is better, or somehow more stable than one that has 150 watts into 8 ohms and 200 into 4.

Some brands also "play" a little with the measurements: The Denon amps I mentioned provide : 20hz-20khz specs for the 8ohm power rating, and @1 kKz specs for the 4 ohm rating to give the illusion of doubling its output power into a 4 ohm load.

Sorry Tako but this is hogwash.

Please name the amp brand that "underates" their 8 ohm performance so it "looks like" the wattage doubles into 4 ohms.

I has been a while but when I worked at a shop that sold McIntosh we were required to have a working "test bench" so specs of amps could be confirmed.

A direct/capacitor coupled solid state amp should produce the same voltage into 4 ohms as 8 ohms. Same Voltage into 4 ohms is double the Watts because more Amperage is required. Ohms law and all that.

Some amps can do that, many can't. The power supply required to create the needed Amperage needs to be large which usualy translates into expensive. If the amp is only to be used with 8 ohm speakers the less capable power supply may not be any loss and saves weight,space and money.

There are some amps that continue to provide the same voltage into 2 and even 1 ohms which translates to a even bigger and more expensive power supply.

No, it is not "specmanship", it is real Volts, Amps, and Watts.

Tube amps, and amps like McIntosh, are autoformer or transformer coupled and do not double Wattage into lower impedance.

[Tako]

Pivot, read ANY review that includes true measurements and you'll almost always see something along the lines of: "In reality it was throwing out more like...."
The amp/brand then gets praised for rating their power specs conservatively, but it almost aways means that the whole doubling inbto 4 ohms goes out the window, as the 4 ohm figure is usally much closer to the manufacturer's specs.
I have NEVER seen measurements of an amplifier that actually completely doubles its output power into 4 ohm when measured by someone else than the manufacturer, in reality the 8 ohm figure is always higher than it's rated, sometimes just a little, but quite often by as much as 50%.
Example: Mark Levinson no.27.5 I owned was rated as 100-200-400 watt @ 8-4-2 ohm, in reality it measured more like: 150-250-400 watts. I've had amps from Krell to Classé do exactly the same on the repairman's test bench: The real life specs of an amp usually look much closer to the specs Japanes companies used to provide: Output power +50% into 4 ohm , something like 100watts into 8 ohms and 150 into 4.
Maybe Mcintosh is a brand apart, but I'm assuming those benchmark tests you had to perform were to ensure it MEETS its specs, not if it exceeds them.

Now assuming manufacturers do this to look good might seem cynical to some, but I can't think of any other reason they would knock as much as 25%-50% of their 8 ohm power specs. Particularly in an audiophile climate where the mantra seems to be: "Output power is not the most important spec: You can see if an amplifier is "stable" when it doubles it's output power into 4 ohms"
And why else would a manufacturer decide to "conservatively" rate his amp at 8 ohm, but go for an exact measurment with the 4 or 2 ohm power specs?
You dont have to take my word for it, stereophile has measurements in the end of their reviews, just look up your favourite power-house amp to see what I mean: 25-50% deviation from the manufacturers figure in the 8 ohm specs but only 5-10% in the 2ohm spec are the rule, not the exceptiom. Here's the Levinson 23.5 (they didn;t test the 27.5) http://www.stereophile.com/content/mark ... asurements

I am not saying it matters for the quality of the amplifier in the end: A Mark Levinson no. 27.5 (Or Krell, or Classé) is still a killer amplifier able to drive pretty much ANY speaker, even if it doesn't double into 4ohms like the manufacturer says. But "conservative" power output specs are often seen as a redeeming quality: A form of honesty and carfullness from the manufactured while they could just as well be a devious sales pitch to make the manufacturer look good. (In 2 ways as it turns out)

[Aural Addict]

To reach the sound level desired from a given loudspeaker requires essentially the same amount of power whether the amp is rated at 50 watts or 300 watts. Just because one moves to a more powerful amp does not mean one will necessarily be feeding the loudspeakers more power. It does mean however that the more powerful amp will have more power in reserve to handle transient peaks in the program material without undue waveform distortion. Your description of loudspeakers sounding a bit forced from using a more powerful amplifier doesn't seem consistent with what should be observed driving speakers to the same sound level with one particular amp and another that is significantly more powerful.

What you said is the case, unless the wattage doubles, hence the reason I spoke of no real difference between 200 and 250...
Wattage is power, so as it increases, so does the power to the amp. Doubling wattage increases db by 3, which is the lowest level audible.
What I wrote was based on three different amps from the same manufacturer used on the same speakers... While it was my opinion, it wasn't out of the blue....

[Aural Addict]

Cambridge and other upper mid level products like Rotel, etc are relatively conservative w/ power ratings, unlike Denon, mid and low level Marantz, Yamaha, etc...

"Conservative" specs are often just as deceptive as "generous" ones: Manufacturers will often provide "conservative" specs into an 8 ohm load to give the impression the amps doubles power into a 4 ohm load. The reality probably is that almost NO amplifier actually does this , but a lot of audiophiles think an amp that is 100 watt into 8 ohms and 200 watts into 4 is better, or somehow more stable than one that has 150 watts into 8 ohms and 200 into 4.

Some brands also "play" a little with the measurements: The Denon amps I mentioned provide : 20hz-20khz specs for the 8ohm power rating, and @1 kKz specs for the 4 ohm rating to give the illusion of doubling its output power into a 4 ohm load.

Go on Cambridge's website and you'll see that they always have an increase of about 150%...
They also rate on low distortion levels, not 0.08% like the companies you mentioned...
Denon will occasionally rate at 0.05...

[Aural Addict]

Cambridge and other upper mid level products like Rotel, etc are relatively conservative w/ power ratings, unlike Denon, mid and low level Marantz, Yamaha, etc...

"Conservative" specs are often just as deceptive as "generous" ones: Manufacturers will often provide "conservative" specs into an 8 ohm load to give the impression the amps doubles power into a 4 ohm load. The reality probably is that almost NO amplifier actually does this , but a lot of audiophiles think an amp that is 100 watt into 8 ohms and 200 watts into 4 is better, or somehow more stable than one that has 150 watts into 8 ohms and 200 into 4.

Some brands also "play" a little with the measurements: The Denon amps I mentioned provide : 20hz-20khz specs for the 8ohm power rating, and @1 kKz specs for the 4 ohm rating to give the illusion of doubling its output power into a 4 ohm load.

Go on Cambridge's website and you'll see that they always have an increase of about 150%...
They also rate on low distortion levels, not 0.08% like the companies you mentioned...
Denon will occasionally rate at 0.05...

I meant 150% or original, which would be and increase of 50%, sorry, it's early....

[Aural Addict]

Funny shady spec about Denon... The ht receivers my store sells (4 digit models) are rated on the box at 8 ohms, but the ones sold at best buy (3 digit) are rated at 6 ohms to give the illusion of more power...
Their 2 channel stuff may be decent, but I can't really trust a company that does stuff like that...

[jackfish]

To reach the sound level desired from a given loudspeaker requires essentially the same amount of power whether the amp is rated at 50 watts or 300 watts. Just because one moves to a more powerful amp does not mean one will necessarily be feeding the loudspeakers more power. It does mean however that the more powerful amp will have more power in reserve to handle transient peaks in the program material without undue waveform distortion. Your description of loudspeakers sounding a bit forced from using a more powerful amplifier doesn't seem consistent with what should be observed driving speakers to the same sound level with one particular amp and another that is significantly more powerful.

What you said is the case, unless the wattage doubles, hence the reason I spoke of no real difference between 200 and 250...
Wattage is power, so as it increases, so does the power to the amp. Doubling wattage increases db by 3, which is the lowest level audible.
What I wrote was based on three different amps from the same manufacturer used on the same speakers... While it was my opinion, it wasn't out of the blue....

Thank you for evading the point of my response. It remains that if particular loudspeakers are driven to a certain SPL, when driven to the same SPL with a more powerful amplifier there is no reason for them sounding a bit forced. Your contentions that one will over power speakers with a more powerful amplifier and that a more powerful amplifier will make speakers sound a bit forced is not coherent.

[pivot]

Maybe Mcintosh is a brand apart,

In a sense McIntosh is different then most.
McIntosh top end amps amps are autofomer coupled and cannot increase watts into reduced impedence. The load on the output devices remains the same independant, more or less, of speaker load. A trade of Watts for a design with assured stablity of the output devices.

but I'm assuming those benchmark tests you had to perform were to ensure it MEETS its specs, not if it exceeds them.

Every amp we sold went on the bench, McIntosh or otherwise. If a McIntosh "just met" it's specs we assumed it was broken and would not sell it. Only happened once on my watch with a very used unit. The test bench had grear that was of the same quality as at a top end repair shop. Don't recall brand of the tone gererator or distortion analizer but they were not "toys".

Now assuming manufacturers do this to look good might seem cynical to some, but I can't think of any other reason they would knock as much as 25%-50% of their 8 ohm power specs..

Manufactures specs are, or should be, the MINIMUM performance of the unit.

Running at lower impedance places increased thermal demand on the output devices in a direct coupled circuit. Over engineering the unit for the 8 ohm load means better headroom for the devices at lower impedance.

I assume you have encountered an amp that was unstable at 4 ohms or even self destucted. I certainly have.

I guess I don't find it out of place for a manufacture to exceed specs at 8 ohms to get rational real world performance at 4 ohms. We gonna have to agree to disagee here.