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Carbon fiber brace experiment

Postby watercourse » 28 Apr 2012 18:11

Hello all,

I've been experimenting with DIY double braces made of carbon fiber sheets and thought I'd report back findings. Ever since Rega have introduced their double brace technology in the RP3 and RP6 , I couldn't help but wonder how these may or may not affect a turntable's sound. Frankly, I was skeptical. I also had to wonder about the choice of material - the dreaded plastic aka phenolic resin yet again - used on the RP3, and so I got to thinking about lighter, more rigid materials for an experiment.

I thought of carbon fiber. Why CF? It is not only rigid and light, but absorbs energy very well. And compared to aluminum of the same thickness, costs are about the same, which is not too expensive for the small amount of material I would need. Maybe I could make my own double brace with CF sheets? It can't be any worse than plastic braces or the thin layer of plastic on the plinth, or so I believed.

As a mountain and urban bicyclist, I have learned to maintain, fix, and yes, even upgrade the parts on my bikes, including building bikes from the frame up. I've also built computers and fixed my old cars, before cars became almost impossible to work on due to complexity. I guess this character trait is behind my curiosity with the workings of a turntable, and seeing whether or not I can improve performance incrementally by changing things here or there.

A few years back a friend of mine who was a professional bike racer at the time had been using a CF frame bike, and she had mentioned how she really loved the feel of the bike, even though she couldn't afford it without her sponsorship. Well, I had to try it, and was very surprised at how the bike was not only feather-light, but when riding on pavement, it really did an excellent job of absorbing all the bumps and cracks of the road, much better than steel, let alone aluminum, but the bike was quicker and more responsive at the same time. The only drawback was: if you dropped it on its side on something hard, don't expect it to come away without damage. Yikes.

So, carbon fiber. Used as a tube, it has some limitations. But its strength-to-weight ratio is hard to beat if it's thick enough and you use it as a plank, as I intended to do. So I set out to make a template out of cardboard, measuring and marking out the arm pillar hole, main bearing hole, and screw holes on the plinth. I ordered the CF bars at 1/16" thick and 3"x12" for a total of $40 from McMaster-Carr. And then I waited and debated. CF is not the easiest material to work with. It is hard to cut, you have to be careful of the microscopic fibers lodging under your skin, and it can release noxious fumes if it burns. If I abandon the experiment now, it won't cost me anything other than shipping.

So I talked to my pals here at VE RoDa and bacobits, drawing opinions from them. Then I contacted Pete Riggle, engineer extraordinaire and all around nice guy for turntable advice. All of their feedback helped me to hone my approach, and made me decide to give it a go. At most, I'll have something that I might be able to share with others. At the least, I will have learned something, and scratched my itch to learn more about turntables and how different materials affect sound.

What am I trying to achieve, you may ask? A bigger sound, fuller in the bass, with no loss of boogie or refinement, moving towards the sound of the Shindo/Garrard 301 that is my dream machine. Wouldn't it be nice if the brace could get me there...?

The Process:

Measure twice, cut once. The template fit like a glove, so onward and upward to fabricating the actual braces. CF is indeed hard to work with, at least with hand tools. Doesn't bend, doesn't cut easily, and you need sharp cutting edges. Hint: slow and easy wins the race. Let the tool do the work for you. Take a look at the shots of where the cutting blade slipped. Oops, that will have to be the bottom brace, obviously. The second one came out much nicer. Along the way, I needed to buy more Dremel cutting wheels, a countersink bit, and carbide-tipped hole saws. Bringing the grand total to $100, and two days of fabrication, fitting, and fine tuning.

Anyways, here are some pics of the process:

21581
21582
21584
21587

The System:

Rega P5 as described in my signature below, i.e. modded to the hilt. One thing someone might think is that the VTAF system may have a different result with the braces than the standard Rega mounts may have. This may be true, so take the results below with this caveat in mind. But then again, if it didn't work with stock mounts, Rega wouldn't use it, right?

SAE 1000lt and Shelter 501mkII carts tested. Heed Quasar phono stage to a Juicy Music Peach II linestage, which has two options for output impedance: low and high (90 ohms and 3.5K ohms respectively). The Peach connects to a Pass X150.5 via its single-ended inputs, which have a 20K ohm input impedance. Speakers are DeVore Nines and REL Strata III sub connected to the Pass. Music: Schubert, Ron Carter, Franck, Pretenders, Bach, Curtis Mayfield.

If you do the math, you'll see that the pre/amp combo is on the borderline of acceptable using the high output Z option of the Peach, at least according to common knowledge. In practice, the low Z output has much fuller, dynamic bass than the high Z, this is to be expected with the borderline impedance matching and maybe other design factors. The high Z, aka "Blueberry Mode", is a simpler SET circuit, and has a distinctly "live" sound to it that the low Z doesn't have. I used the Blueberry Mode exclusively in my listening tests, as it more clearly illustrates any changes in bass.

The Results:

I first started with the SAE. I had become familiar with the SAE over about a month before embarking on this experiment. I would say that prior to the braces, the sound was very smooth, very listenable, big soundstage, nice top end, and good bass, but lacking bass extension, and overall, lacking inner resolution when compared to my other carts in my system.

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21585

When I put both CF braces on, I immediately didn't like it: lost bass, harsh character, not enjoyable at all. I couldn't take the braces off quick enough. I thought, oh well, I tried. 100 bucks down the drain.

But then I thought, why not just try a CF "armboard", i.e. a single top brace? When I tried this, the SAE gained inner resolution, but lost its trademark smoothness as its overarching trait. Bass was improved, both in midbass fullness and extension, and actually sounded quite a bit like my Shelters sound. Not bad at all. On the Juilliard String Quartet's Death and the Maiden, the quick, intricate bowing work was much, much easier to follow with the brace. On Ron Carter's New York Slick, there was much better tonal balance, and instrumental textures were more clear. Overall, it sharpened the SAE's sound from somewhat smoothed over in the details to being able to run with the big boys, and gave it a much more balanced sound, and while losing its smooth character, at the same time, it wasn't harsh.

Which made me wonder what would happen when I threw my Shelter 501 on. The Shelters are detail monsters. At times, though the 501's midrange is very liquid and warm, on certain recordings the top end would gain a bit of hash. And while the bass on the Shelter is good, probably honestly playing what is there, it cannot compare to the bass volume and extension of the Dynavector 20xl. So I was a bit skeptical how the Shelter would sound with the brace: if it made the SAE come closer to the detail of the Shelter, would it make me run from the room once I put the Shelter on, and how would it affect the bass?

I mounted the Shelter, and put on Death and the Maiden. I have to say that my immediate reaction was: this sounds REALLY GOOD. Much better than I remember the 501 sounding: excellent top-to-bottom cohesion, good top end, liquid midrange, bass was full and punchy, and the sound image was big, tactile and dense, very grounded and solid. The sound was very engaging, musical, and easy to listen to. Not hyper detailed at all, if anything, it brought out the sweetness in the midrange with more clarity. Ron Carter's bass had much more texture than the SAE, better extension, and locatability in the soundstage. I easily relaxed into this sound, this was definitely an improvement. It was like I turned up the "clarity" knob on the preamp, but didn't lose any musicality.

OK, so what about real bass extension, never the 501's strong suit? I put on Franck Organ Chorales 1-3, and sat back. This recording is very good, excellent dynamics, and some serious subterranean bass. Chorale No. 3 has some very nice textures: brassy, light, flute-like sounds contrasting with reedy, gutsy, and earth-moving, as well as very soft and very loud dynamic contrasts. Chorale No. 1 really works out your woofers (and sub, in my case). Well, the Shelter definitely conveyed a major portion of the lowest octaves, but fell short of really moving the earth. Good bass heft, I didn't sense that it was lacking bass overall, but it just couldn't hit the bottom. Then again, it could be a limitation with my sub, I'll have to throw the Dynavector or 901 on to really see. All in all, I don't think I ever really appreciated this cart as much as I do now; I actually don't want to take it out of the system, even though I know the 901 is better, especially in the bass department and overall refinement.

Other Observations:

As some of you know, I have a light rail system very close to my flat. This has wreaked havoc at times with my P5, causing acoustic feedback if I had the volume up too high, and if multiple heavy trains come by simultaneously. Because I can't install a wall mount, I've had to experiment with ways to try to isolate my deck from the daily minor earthquakes that occur due to trains. Up til now, I've been partially successful in that I've minimized the vibrations to the extent that I no longer need a rumble filter, nor do I feel that the train is a hindrance to my enjoyment of my analog setup. Guess what? The brace seems to be help in this regard as well: I haven't seen the intensity of woofer pumping that I used to see. I have been taking my time with testing this out, but it seems that getting the Delrin platter, placing the deck on an acrylic platform on cones, moving the subwoofer, and now adding the brace have helped me get to the point that the musicality is really unaffected by the vibrations - the arm may shake and the music may waver a bit, but I still very much enjoy what I'm hearing, and I know that the problem is temporary and will be resolved quickly.

Conclusion:

Bottom line, I think this is a keeper. I would say it is not a huge difference from before, but it is a definite incremental improvement, and I like what the brace does for my deck. Although it still doesn't sound like a Shindo/Garrard, I very much like what I'm hearing, and I like the direction the brace takes the sound. It's still a P5, only much more refined. The brace actually does seems to provide the more rigid mechanical connection between the arm and the bearing as Rega promises of their version, and the CF brings a bit more control of extraneous vibrations to allow more of the music to come through in a cohesive and musical way.

And although the low Z output still has more bass than the Blueberry Mode, I have been marveling at the better quality and quantity of bass I am getting in Blueberry Mode, despite potential impedance mismatching.

I don't really think I can point to any drawbacks of the CF brace, other than if you don't have the right tools and/or you don't want to take apart your deck and void any warranty and such. And if you biff it like I did, it may not look so great.

So anyone believing that their rigs are lacking in bass may want to investigate making their own armboard out of CF or some other light, rigid material. In fact, I'd be willing to send around my extra brace if anyone is interested. It will work with three-point mount arms, pillar-mount arms, and VTAF mounted arms. And I'm happy to send out a scan of my template as well. And of course, provide more of my experience to anyone interested.

Happy listening!
Wilson
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Re: Carbon fiber brace experiment

Postby ebreckpo » 28 Apr 2012 18:57

Great experiment and something to think about for the "aftermarket" guys.
Perhaps the sound issues encountered with the 2 braces are from the VTAF with decouples the arm from the "chassis". I recently noticed that the P5 has some damping material in the chassis ( If you look at the underside you see 4 small holes with some rubber) which can influence your experiment. Does the RP6 has this damping material?
A good thing should experiment with a P3 or an older Planar 3 with has just a plain wooden chassis although thicker. The old Planar 2 has a thinner chassis to my knowledge (about the same as the RP3?)
I think the bracing is much more a system to compensate for the less thick chassis used in the new RP3. Experimenting with different materials could also be an option.
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Re: Carbon fiber brace experiment

Postby watercourse » 28 Apr 2012 19:52

ebreckpo - thanks for the feedback!

I have not noticed any holes or rubber on my plinth, although in widening the pillar hole, I have noticed that there are some thin metal braces running through the mdf. Where did you see the holes?

Not sure if the RP6 has damping or not. It seems like Rega are pursuing a much simpler design/manufacturing process than previously, so I think not based on what I read, but who knows.

Good point re: VTAF, the decoupling effect of this mount has increased bass from the top-mount, and perhaps too tightly coupling the braces may have led to what I observed. My hypothesis is that the brace benefits the VTAF mount system by providing a very rigid platform for the bushing and arm to sit on. Because the VTAF mostly contacts the brace, it likely is better than the plinth at draining away and absorbing any spurious resonances, hence the sonic benefits.

One thing I forgot to mention: the bottom brace hits the motor cover. You can actually see this in photos you find online of the RP3/6 undersides. The bottom brace sits underneath the motor cover, and appears to be attached via one of the motor cover screws.
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Re: Carbon fiber brace experiment

Postby ebreckpo » 29 Apr 2012 00:54

I noticed the damping material in every corner of the P5 plinth you have a holes diam around 10mm should be around 5/16" sorry about my non metric values if they are not correct but gives a rough indication what you have to look for.
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Re: Carbon fiber brace experiment

Postby watercourse » 29 Apr 2012 01:16

That is curious, my plinth does not have visible holes on the bottom, except at the front two feet. Are the holes near the feet on your plinth? I wonder if I remove the frame, whether there might be holes there.
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Re: Carbon fiber brace experiment

Postby ebreckpo » 29 Apr 2012 09:55

On the back next to serial number, next to the clip where you attach the phono cable. On both front feet. I'll try to make some pictures.
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Re: Carbon fiber brace experiment

Postby RoDa » 29 Apr 2012 10:25

ebreckpo wrote:On the back next to serial number, next to the clip where you attach the phono cable. On both front feet. I'll try to make some pictures.


Saw those on my P5 too, but didn't think more about them....
Looks like some sort of rubber?

Barely visible next to the P9 feet in the front of the plinth.

Thanks for the good discussions via e-mail, watercourse, and for your enthusiasm and "go for it" spirit.

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Re: Carbon fiber brace experiment

Postby RoDa » 29 Apr 2012 10:43

Watercourse:
I'm a bit curious regarding the changes with the brace(s).
The immediate change using the same cart was a thinner and more harsh sound?
Then changing to a cart used earlier (how long ago?) the sound is better.
My head/ears have big problems when comparing sound from days ago to the current sound, but I know that this is something that other guys can do better than me.

The fine line between details and harsness is one that I'm afraid to step over..

The thoughts keeping me from trying a brace tweak on my P5 are:
- The Plinth is said to be complex and similar to those on P7 and P9
- I use the three point base to fix the arm to the plinth, and this will maybe tip the scale even when using only one brace? (The VTAF doesn't have the same rigidity in the mount?)
- Looks aren't all, but it needs to look good to stay on my P5. Aluminium and CNC cutting... :)



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Re: Carbon fiber brace experiment

Postby Etnier » 29 Apr 2012 11:05

A fascinating read!
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Re: Carbon fiber brace experiment

Postby watercourse » 29 Apr 2012 16:28

RoDa wrote:Watercourse:
I'm a bit curious regarding the changes with the brace(s).
The immediate change using the same cart was a thinner and more harsh sound?
Then changing to a cart used earlier (how long ago?) the sound is better.
My head/ears have big problems when comparing sound from days ago to the current sound, but I know that this is something that other guys can do better than me.

The fine line between details and harsness is one that I'm afraid to step over..

The thoughts keeping me from trying a brace tweak on my P5 are:
- The Plinth is said to be complex and similar to those on P7 and P9
- I use the three point base to fix the arm to the plinth, and this will maybe tip the scale even when using only one brace? (The VTAF doesn't have the same rigidity in the mount?)
- Looks aren't all, but it needs to look good to stay on my P5. Aluminium and CNC cutting... :)



REGArds

Hi Rolf,
Thanks as always for your thoughts and debate! I am in agreement, no harshness.
I wouldn't say the SAE went from smooth to harsh or thin. The SAE gained in apparent resolution across the frequencies, which in my case, is more to my liking than how the cart sounded before. This includes tightening up the bass, and being able to hear bass textures better. In fact, I'd say that the lack of resolution made me move on from that cart, although many will probably disagree with me.
Re: Shelter 501 sound. I forgot to mention that I compared the 501 with and without the brace. Regardless though, I do feel that I have a good sense of the cart's sound, strengths and weaknesses, etc. as I've had it for over 2 years, and it helps to rotate carts once in a while to refresh. Put simply, I moved up the Shelter line because I felt I was not getting enough bass. I don't feel that way now, bass is ample and of very good quality. Before, I would characterize the 501 sound as detailed, smooth and refined, excellent midrange, but lacking bass and sometimes hashy top end. So, if I were to try to quantify a sonic change at least relatively, the difference is incrementally better, but enough so that I am not wanting to move on. That last part is significant.
I should throw the DV on there, and see if there are any changes, but again, I'm not motivated very strongly to do this because the combo is so enjoyable right now.
So, how are you thinking that the brace and plinth may not work together?
I understand about the looks aspect, but all of my mistakes are covered up by the arm itself. If I had access to a CNC machine, you bet I'd use it!
Aluminum vs. CF: I think we'll just have to compare. I doubt that Al would have the same ability to drain energy, but again, I'm basing this on my experiences in the biking context: Al frames have the harshest ride of all of the bikes I've had, in between steel and CF in lightness and rigidity in bike frames. It may be "just right", but someone needs to compare.
In the VTAF, the arm is rigidly mounted not to the plinth, but to the brass and bronze mount material, which minimally contacts/interacts with the plinth. Putting a more rigid, more energy-dissipating material at that interface seems to parallel Rega's philosophy of light and rigid. I guess I am not seeing how it would be contraindicated with a three-point mount, given that Rega themselves are using the braces now in this context?
PS I forgot to mention that I tried loose and tight "clamping" of the double braces, and IME, tighter was better, but still not acceptable.
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Re: Carbon fiber brace experiment

Postby watercourse » 29 Apr 2012 16:46

RoDa wrote:
ebreckpo wrote:On the back next to serial number, next to the clip where you attach the phono cable. On both front feet. I'll try to make some pictures.


Saw those on my P5 too, but didn't think more about them....
Looks like some sort of rubber?

Barely visible next to the P9 feet in the front of the plinth.

Thanks for the good discussions via e-mail, watercourse, and for your enthusiasm and "go for it" spirit.

REGArds

Wow, I definitely still cannot find any holes or rubber stoppers on my plinth. Just a lot of fingerprints from manhandling the deck as much as I do :lol:
1 cm is definitely hard to miss, so I wonder if there are different versions of the P5?
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Re: Carbon fiber brace experiment

Postby watercourse » 29 Apr 2012 17:34

When I wrote up the initial post, I was working on 3 hours sleep. Here are my clarifications:

1. I didn't clarify that this experiment has been over the past month. So I've had time to really listen.

2. I neglected to state that I tried both carts both with and without the brace. I initially threw the 501 on immediately after the SAE, but then took the brace off to confirm differences. Taking the brace off both confirmed what I was hearing, and that I recalled the sonic characteristics of the 501 reasonably accurately, but see point #3 below.

Some may question whether the mounting parameters are the same re: alignment, VTA, etc. after removing or reinstalling the brace. The brace raises both the subplatter/platter and arm by the same relative height, so this should not be an issue. The VTAF makes it easy to pull the arm out without making any changes to VTA or alignment, so if there were any shifts, they were likely on the scale of thousandths of a mm (or inch, if you prefer). In other words, miniscule differences.

3. The last time I put the 501 on, I did not have the Delrin platter, nor did I have the acrylic platform. In removing the brace, it confirmed that these changes have definitely influenced the table's performance for the better, regardless of the brace. Without the brace, the 501 did not tend towards the same level of treble hash on LPs that it had problems with before. With the brace, this improvement in hash didn't change perceptibly, but bass performance did, and there was a bit of increased midrange clarity.

4. Those folks without the VTAF, I'm now realizing, may have problems in reproducing the same parameters between brace trials. So, if I were to think about conducting this experiment without the VTAF, I'd simply calibrate the sound using the cart of choice and reference vinyl, and then put the brace in to detect any changes. I'd probably specifically highlight any problem areas that your system or cart might have, i.e. treble hash with the 501, inner resolution in the SAE, and pick vinyl that would help compare differences with or without the brace. I'd probably have to make sure I separate trials if I will be using more than one cart.
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Re: Carbon fiber brace experiment

Postby RoDa » 29 Apr 2012 21:17

watercourse wrote:Wow, I definitely still cannot find any holes or rubber stoppers on my plinth. Just a lot of fingerprints from manhandling the deck as much as I do :lol:
1 cm is definitely hard to miss, so I wonder if there are different versions of the P5?


You have the alu surround? I have the wooden one, suspect it has to to with that.
I peeled off one of the rubber pads, and it revealed a screw....

R
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Re: Carbon fiber brace experiment

Postby watercourse » 29 Apr 2012 21:39

Yes, I have the alu surround. That may explain it if both of you have wooden surrounds.
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