Denon DL 103 MC Ctg

[colhogan]

Guys:
Maybe you can offer me some advice. Here is my situation:
I recently purchased a Denon DL 103 MM Ctg for my Rega P 3 24'table. I was using a Nagaoka MP110 before,with good results..
I have noticed that the output of the Denon is not very high. I a using a 40 watts tube integrated amp,so I only have so much gain to start with..
The Phono preamp I am using is a Musical Surroundings Phonomena 2. It has all kinds of adjustments for loading & gain,but every setting I tried for the Denon just is not loud enough for me.
I do understand that the Denon is a low output MC,but do I need a step-up transformer to use it the way I want to?
The Denon is supposed to be an excellent budget MC Ctg,but I really did not hear all that much improvement over my Nagaoka.
Also, the Musical Surroundings preamp does not have a low filter,like the old Acurus P 10 I was using,so I noticed that my woofer moves a lot more. Is this an issue that I could solve by adding a small weight to my tonearm?
Thanks in advance for any help you can offer.

[KentT]

The Denon DL-103 is a low output moving coil. So it needs either a Step-Up transformer or pre-preamplifier to get acceptable gain.

[nabil]

I don't know much about the Musical Surroundings Phonomena II phono stage, but have you checked if it has a Moving Coil input section? I believe it does. If so, make sure that it is set to MC and not to MM. This should fix your issue.

[vincula2008]

Your phonostage has all kind of adjustments. Select MC cart, put the gain switch up to 60 dB and set the loading to 100 ohm as a default one to start with. You can experiment afterwards with different gain and loading settings until you find the one you prefer. Shouldn't be an issue, as it's a very flexible piece of gear.

Adding a bit of mass to your Rega arm would surely yield some sonic benefits.


Regards,

Vincula

[hesson12]

It looks like some of those who have responded do not realize that you said you are using a phono preamp and that you have tried every gain setting on the preamp, to no effect. The Denon 103 is not just a low-output cartridge; it's a VERY low-output cartridge. The highest gain setting of the preamp is 60 dB, and frankly, I'm a bit surprised that this is not enough to give you normal volume levels. I don't know enough about step-up transformers to offer advice, but perhaps you could contact Musical Surroundings to see if they have any advice. I understand they are quite responsive to customers.

Woofer pumping is a concern with all vinyl-based systems, especially those with ported speakers. I, too, am baffled as to why so many phono preamps lack subsonic filters. But then again, there are a LOT of things audio manufacturers do that make no sense to me (i.e., eliminating balance and tone controls on amps!!). I'm not sure whether adding mass to your tonearm would help or not, but I'm pretty sure buying a subsonic filter (like the one sold by KABusa.com) would help. I get some woofer pumping, but I just ignore it (and I believe a LOT of other people do the same).

As to the minor improvement over your Nagaoka, that is also a highly regarded cart, though a lower-priced one. Perhaps the modest difference you are experiencing is just the law of diminishing returns we hear so much of in high-end audio: Spend a whole lot more, get just a little improvement.

Sorry I can't me more informative, but at least I read your whole post.

-Bob

[nabil]

I too read his whole post, and while the denon is a low output mc, it's not "that" low. My guess is that the phono section has plenty of gain for the denon. Something else must be going on.

[AudioSoul]

I too read his whole post, and while the denon is a low output mc, it's not "that" low. My guess is that the phono section has plenty of gain for the denon. Something else must be going on.

I agree, there must be something else going on. The poster needs to read the directions because 60db gain is plenty for a 103......

[EdAInWestOC]

Simply put the Nagaoka 110 has an output of 5mv and the Denon 103 has an output of 0.3mv at the same velocity. Your phono preamp has a maximum gain of 60db and a minimum gain setting of 40db.

If you had your phono preamp set to its minimum gain of 40db with the Nagaoka 110 you would have realized an output of 500mv at its rated output. With your preamp set to its maximum gain of 60db it would yield an output of 300mv with the DL-103 which is enough difference in output to notice.

Its not enough to ruin the setup but its enough to notice. You will need the volume set higher.

On the woofer pumping issue...the Denon has an rated dynamic compliance of 5 x 10-6 cm/Dyne at 100 Hz which brings it in somewhere around 9 x 10-6 cm/Dyne at 10Hz. The effective mass of around 12 grams for that Rega arm can still cause resonance issues unless you add some mass at the headshell.

If you have somewhere between 5 and 6 grams total fastener weight you should be able to lower the lateral dynamic compliance to the sweet spot at 10Hz. This may or may not help with the acoustical feedback issue depending on the location of your turntable.

Once you have the fastener mass issue fixed with your setup you can get the rest of the parameters set. The Phenomema's gain of 60db should be sufficient and a setting of 100ohms would be just about right for the DL-103. Set the capacitance to its lowest value. It should not matter but additional capactance is of no use with the Denon...its best to dial it out.

With all of that stuff set you can get around to fixing whats wrong ( if anything) or just breaking in the 103.

Ed

[MR F]

I run my 103 at 60db/100 ohm and it is more than enough gain. there must be something else going wrong.

edit:

then again my amp is 130wpc, so I guess it may be very different in your setup.

[colhogan]

Thanks for all the advice, Guys! I'll add some extra weight to the tonearm and see if it will help.
As for the Denon, I just sent it back.They were not happy about taking it back,but it only had less than 2 hours on it,so they should be able to resell it without much trouble.. It may be purely in my head,but having to turn the gain pot on my amp up to 12:00 to get a good volume level does not appeal to me at all. I just went back to my trusty Nagaoka MP 110. Since my 'table-arm seems to like them, I may just try a more expensive one in the near future.

[dlaloum]

Just remember - when setting it up for the MP110 - it will need a lot less mass than the Denon did.

The MP110 is a mid compliance cartridge - which should be just about spot on for that arm...

Best way to check is to get a test record with a low frequency sweep track and work out at what frequency it does its resonant dance/wobble (it is quite visible when it happens!)

If it is above 10Hz - add more weight to lower it...

If it is below 10Hz - remove weight to raise it (this is a lot harder than adding weight obviously!!) - In cases like this I use nylon screws, which saves around 0.3g - every bit counts... but I am not aware of other tricks that can be used to lighten the Rega arm.

HTH

bye for now

David

[colhogan]

A footnote:
I tried several different things to decrease the woofers pumping like that,including adding weight to the tonearm, and isolating my Rega "table better. The adding of more weight did nothing,while the isolating helped somewhat. I changed a few switches on the back of my phono preamp,and this helped a bit...
I ordered a KAB USA Rumble Filter. They say they work great,and it will also solve my woofer pumping issues,(hopefully.)

[Oracle_309]

Thanks for all the advice, Guys! I'll add some extra weight to the tonearm and see if it will help.
As for the Denon, I just sent it back.They were not happy about taking it back,but it only had less than 2 hours on it,so they should be able to resell it without much trouble.. It may be purely in my head,but having to turn the gain pot on my amp up to 12:00 to get a good volume level does not appeal to me at all. I just went back to my trusty Nagaoka MP 110. Since my 'table-arm seems to like them, I may just try a more expensive one in the near future.

Using your volume control at any point really isn't amplifying, it is attenuating. So "at 12:00 o'clock" you're just reducing the signal less that at "9:00 o'clock". You may have considered the use of a step-up transformer. Some are relatively inexpensive. I recall that Sony, Nakamichi, Ortofon, etc had inline transformers. Perhaps a good vintage one would have resolved your issue.

Adding mass to a tonearm can be as easy as using some silicon caulk (a thin even coat) or some latex theatrical paint.

[colhogan]

Update:
I got the KAB Rumble Filter today. It hooked into my rig without much fuss or stress.
It certainly does remove the woofer pumping,as they claim.
As far as negative effects on the sound, there MIGHT BE A SLIGHT DEGRADATION in overall sound,but I"m really not positive. (Certainly nothing that would merit instant removal.)
I know it is considered audio sacrilege to have something in the way of the signal,but the woofer pumping thing was driving me to a slow insanity..I was just looking for some piece of mind so I can get back to spinning LP's.