Newbie Questions

[Plague Cell]

Hi all, new here, and new to vinyl. Had a look around and can't find information on a few of the questions I have. Don't be afraid to use proper terminology or deep technical concepts here, I'm a music technician by trade so hopefully you won't need to worry about anything going way over my head!

I've decided to get a Technics 1210mk2 as my first deck, as they are supposedly very reliable and although not generally regarded as an audiophile deck I hear they do the job just fine.

1) I know this is covered all over the place, but what is a good cartridge for this deck? My absolute priority is preserving my records as much as possible from damage and wear. I know it is pretty much unavoidable but I'd like to limit wear as much as possible. My budget is around £80($127) but may stretch further, possibly to just over £100($160), but preferably at the lower end of my budget! I have been looking at the Ortofon 2M Red, any opinions or alternatives? If it helps, I'd be looking for a good all-rounder cartridge, as one minute I might be listening to ambient music, the next I'll be listening to gangster rap, and the next some heavy metal. They will all be fairly modern records though, I am unlikely to have many that are much older than 1990, but there will be some exceptions (some old blues and a touch of Glen Campbell for example!)

2) Kind of a link to the last question, what tracking force and stylus tip shape/measurement is going to be most kind to my records? I ask because the Ortofon 2M Red tracks 'best' at 1.8g, is this considered a little heavy? I also hear that a spherical tip stylus causes less wear on records than an elliptical, any truth to this? I also read that I should choose a light cartridge for a light tonearm and a heavy cartridge for a heavy tonearm, is this true? In which case what is the stock 1210 tonearm regarded as?

3) I have heard of a few people getting poor audio quality on a 1210 as the record nears the spindle, is this a known problem or is it just due to inadequate setup?

4) Is using the uncut side of a single-sided record really a good way to dial in anti-skate?

5) What are some warning signs of a bad setup? Anything I should listen for that will tell me if I'm mistracking, or the tonearm is the wrong height, or my cartridge isn't aligned, etc? Again I'm trying to avoid unnecessary wear on the vinyl.

6) I'm not too concerned about my phono stage just yet, I can always upgrade later so for now I'm going to get a fairly cheap one, was thinking either the Cambridge Audio Azur 640p, or the Pro-ject Phonobox, both around £80($127). Anything that really jumps out as a bad choice there?

Many thanks to anyone who takes the time to read all that, I know it's a bit of a long one. I hope some of you can shed some light on any of these questions as I'm itching to get listening, I have a small stack of recently bought records and no turntable yet!

[duficity]

I would go up to the Ortofon 2m Blue. There is a comparison on this site of the red and blue to see why. The tracking force of 1.8 grams is about average. Tracking force has as much to do with stylus shape as anything else, and a little on the heavier side is preferable as too light might allow mistracking. If you cartridge is not aligned properly, I usually notice the highs being rough and tizzy, cymbals staticy instead of clear, sibilants on female voice. If VTA is off, the bass can be muddy if cartridge is tail down, light if cartridge is tail up.. the Cambridge 640p is a very nice phono preamp for the price.
Good luck and enjoy.

[thommo_work]

To take your points in order, Plague

1. Good alternatives in that sort of range are the Nagaoka MP110, Audio Technica AT120E and other Ortofon alternatives (OM20 / 520II both closer to the Blue than the Red). Put a gun to my head and I'd go Nagaoka out of that lot. I've lived with the OM20, the 520 and the MP11 (the 110's predecessor).

2. As long as you track within the downforce parameters of the manufacturer, there isn't really a difference in wear unless you are woefully misaligned. If you are that badly misaligned then the "sharper" profiles may do more damage than the rounder ones, but those sharper profiles (line contact, shibata, microridge/SAS) aren't really in the price point you are looking at.

3. This is not just a 1210 issue, it's pretty much every t/t and all to do with the alignment. Get the alignment right and it really reduces the mistracking/inner groove distortion. Some sytlus profiles are better at that reduction than others, but they tend to be the "sharper" ones as I alluded to above.

4. I think (I'm donning my parachute here in case I get shot down) that it's the best way to set it if you don't have a setup disc.

5. You pretty much answered your own question earlier - sound quality will degrade as the side progresses. If you take even the slightest bit of care at your initial setup, you'll be in the right sort of area and will minimise any damage potential. Loads of alignment threads on here, so have a search.

6. Neither of those are stinkers anecdotally, although I've only lived (happily) with the Cambridge.

[Plague Cell]

Many thanks for the replies guys, feeling a little more confident with what I'm looking for now, though I will also see if anyone else posts with an opinion too!

@duficity: That is pushing my budget quite a bit, it looks like the cartridge for both the red and the blue is the same, is it just the coloured stylus assembly that is different? Perhaps I could upgrade at a later date?

Failing that, are there any other carts that would do a good job while keeping closer to £100($160)? Is the Denon DL110 worth considering? What about a Shure M97xE or a Grado Red? Again, trying to avoid record wear.

@thommo_work: Thankyou for your detailed reply

1) An Audio Technica At120E huh? looks like a good price and nothing immediately jumps out as undesirable, might have a look at some reviews!

2) So if I have a cart rated for 2g that is tracking at 2g, that doesn't mean it will wear a record faster than a cart rated for 1.5g that is tracking at 1.5g?

3) I see, looks like I'll have to spend many hours on alignment once I get all my gear!

4) Haha OK i think I'll try it with the blank disc first, the cost of various accessories is really mounting up!

5) Again, I'll be careful with alignment

6) Aye I'm thinking I'll probably go with the Cambridge, I've used Cambridge gear before and it's pretty tidy so that looks like the one for me

Cheers for the help guys, gonna gather a few more opinions before I make any concrete decisions but your input has been really helpful!

[thommo_work]

Pretty much every cart you (or I, or duficity) mention is good and will have some proponents on here. When it comes to carts it's really horses for courses. They all sound quite different to each other, and none of them will rip your records to pieces, so it's a case of what sound do you want? Some will give a brighter sheen to records, at the expense of the lower end, some will sound richer and lusher but may sacrifice some top end sparkle, some may emphasise the middle at the expense of the extremes. You need to know what you actually want.

Another of the things you will need to consider is the arm mass/cartridge compliance question. **Rule of thumb alert** Generally, the heavier the arm, the stiffer the cart suspension would want/need to be. The lighter the arm, the softer the suspension. The Denon is stiffer than pretty much all the others you mention. I'm not saying it's better of worse, just something you should know.

Re 2) No, they will be designed to work within those parameters. However - a cart rated for 2g tracking at 1.5g will do more damage, because it's more likely to be bouncing around inside the grooves due to the lack of force keeping it there. Again it's all about the mass and suspension quotient.

[Plague Cell]

I think mainly I was hoping someone knew of one with a reputation for being kind to vinyl, I guess I'd be looking for something fairly neutral, though a little lift in the bass end would not be unpleasant if I had to choose one or the other!
I have heard the Ortofon Red can be a bit bright though, but also that the 1210 can be a bit dark, maybe they would cancel each other out?

I see, I've not heard that before, that's useful to know, even if it's a general guideline rather than a strict rule. I don't suppose you'd know if the arm on the 1210 is regarded as a heavy or a light one?




Small vinyl update: Blue Eyed Soul by Till Bronner arrived today, lovely jazz album, but it was packaged terribly and rattled inside the cardboard mailer, damaging the corners and spine on the outer sleeve

[mtbguy68]

Plague,

I can vouched for the Denon DL110 as a good cartridge as I used that cartridge on a NA Spacedeck when I was at university. I also had a chance to use the Technics 1210 although it had an SME arm rather than its own arm. The cartridge mounted on that turntable was a Grado Platinum which sounded great.

While I have not used the Ortofon 2m cartridges I've heard that people generally think that they are an improvement on the Ortofons that they replaced. I have also used Ortofons extensively and enjoy their sound. From experience they do track at the heavy end of the spectrum but I have never worried about the vinyl wear.

[megatrends]

I am new here as well but not new to vinyl. My first 'turntable" was an all in one AM Radio portable record player I got as a gift from my Godfather. I bought a ton of 45s to play on it and it took huge D cell batteries. I then graduated to a stand alone suitcase type leather bound record player that I could play LPs on. The first vinyl record I bought myself was ZZ Top Fandango in 1975 as wee lad of about 7 years old. The internet is so useful in learning about the dos and don'ts with vinyl care and turntable setup. My favorite turntable is a Technics SL-Q300 direct drive quartz lock type turntable from around 1983 maybe. Not top of the line but not a bad turntable either and very easy to use and setup. No fuss no muss. I listen to vinyl records daily and have for a very long time.

[Plague Cell]

Might anybody be able to shed some light on the Audio-Technica AT-120e? seems to often be mentioned in the same sentence as the Shure M97xE and the Ortofon Red... People are saying it has 'that vinyl sound' while other carts in the price range sound a bit 'CD-like'... flying a bit blind here, anyone have any experiences?

[megatrends]

Might anybody be able to shed some light on the Audio-Technica AT-120e? seems to often be mentioned in the same sentence as the Shure M97xE and the Ortofon Red... People are saying it has 'that vinyl sound' while other carts in the price range sound a bit 'CD-like'... flying a bit blind here, anyone have any experiences?

I would not mind hearing about that one as well.

[mmarston]

Some good info here. I can't speak to the current Ortofons, or other cartridges mentioned (other than a general distaste for Shures.) I've used OMs with all the available styli from -10 through (the original Van den Hul) -40 in my 1200 Mk IIs. Have been very satisfied and no wear issues with any of them. Probably my all around favorite of these is the -20; the -30 & -40 offer a bit more detail on some records at the cost of occasionally sounding a bit harsh on others. The -20 just sounds consistently musical with a relaxed natural presentation (with my systems, and to my ears.) But none ever sound really bad unless the record is just horrible. I suspect a similar situation might obtain with the 2M series as you go up the line.

I don't pay much attention to the 1200 "naysayers" either. I work as an electronic tech, and when I'm home I want to listen to music, not fiddle with equipment. The Techs are rock solid dependable performers. Set up right, they will provide many years of trouble-free enjoyment. Sure if I were a millionaire, I'd probably have a Rockport, and an SME, and a dozen other tables that cost more than the average car... but I'd still keep the Techs.

In my experience, record wear just isn't an issue as long as you set up the cartridge correctly, use appropriate tracking force (I use the mfr.'s highest recommended force,) keep records & stylus clean, and replace the stylus immediately if it becomes damaged (which shouldn't happen if you follow those rules and are careful...)

Happy listening!
Mike