Quality, a hindrance sometimes?...

[mickb69]

hi guys, my last hi fi was an aiwa z-1800, with matching included turntable,
it was/still is a tough workhorse, good records sounded good, bad records naturally sounded bad, but it was easy to use and could take a licking and keep on ticking.

i recently got a thorens TD166 mkvi with RB250 tonearm and audio technica AT-95 cartridge, through an arcam alpha 3 amp, and mission 731 speakers bi-wired.
the pickup is incredibly sensitive and good records sound really great, but bad records sound even worse, like the worse-ness is enhanced,
could this just be a handful of bad records?
i suppose what i'm saying is "could they be simply just bad recordings in the first place? or is it more likely to be because the records are physically knackered?"

the particular records in question are AC/DCs "if you want blood..." (terrible sounding)
and black sabbaths "heaven and hell" (not so bad)
and "live at last" (quite bad)

what do you reckon?

i got quite friendly with the guy at my local second hand record shop, and he had dug out a load of the kind of stuff i am after, and there were about three or four copies of "if you want blood" so i'll ask him to swap the vinyl and i'll have another listen

[mickb69]

also, on another note, with the same set-up, i was temporarily using some pound shop speaker cable until i can afford some better stuff, honestly it was so thin that the cable kept breaking away as i was stripping the outside of it away (using a proper tool to do it too).
it still sounded very good though.

but i was down at my brothers last week and he mentioned he had some speaker cable in the shed i could have, it is similar in look to the pound shop stuff but way, way thicker, which in theory should sound better, so i cut four short lengths all the same and stripped them, fitted them...

anyway, i don't know if i have lost the plot (entirely possible) but it does'nt seem to sound as good as the really thin crappy stuff, is this possible?
there seems to be less depth and multi dimensional sound imaging, if you know what i mean, or have i just got used to the improvement very fast?

p.s bear in mind that this comparison is in it's own little context, and i am well aware of the potential difference between pound shop speaker cable and expensive stuff

[duficity]

Some vinyl doesnt sound good doesnt matter what you play it on. Not every producer was interested in good sound. Some were recording for radio air play, so the music was compressed so it would seem louder. Also, pressings of popular records could be made with worn out masters in less quality conscious facilities. thats why the same recording pressed at different locations can sound much different.

As for the wire, are you sure you hooked it up with the correct phase and didnt switch any legs? That would mess up our imaging and depth. Your speaker wire should be at least 16 guage lamp cord size, especially if there is any distance to the speakers.

[mickb69]

i'm pretty sure i wired it up right, it's a tiny room, and everything is close together and i did each side, and each set of terminals in an order, although it's possible i mis-wired it and will check anyway.

it might simply be that the last time i was listening to my best records to experience the awesome-ness, and it is coincidence or circumstance that i ended up listening to new old records that i had just bought, just after putting the new cable in.

i have gone back to the top records (my brand new dark side of the moon copy) and it sounds great, just seems to be lacking a little depth compared to last time), (except for the bit with the chimes and bells on "time", that seemed to fill the room and happen around me a little with the sounds as if they were from varying distances sort of if you know what i mean.

[Jim Leach]

I was thinking a phase issue as well with the new cable.

And, yes, as your system gets better (more accurate and revealing of the original recording) you will pay the price with exactly what you are descriing. The good stuff can sound better (or worse) and the bad stuff sounds A LOT worse. All those things that make it good or bad are magnified and clarified.

Perhaps the dental floss wire was causing enough load on the amp to keep it from operating at full potential, and now with less resistive wire, more of this accurate information is making it to the speakers, and ultimately to your ears...

[mickb69]

Perhaps the dental floss wire was causing enough load on the amp to keep it from operating at full potential, and now with less resistive wire, more of this accurate information is making it to the speakers, and ultimately to your ears...

ah!, this was what i was thinking, with the dental floss wire there was still bags (more-so than now i think) of great quality sound without accentuating crackling and popping, and it did'nt sound "restrained" at all

would it be dangerous to my amp if i went back to the dental floss wire?
it is designated "speaker cable" and did'nt affect volume before.
(i know it seems an insane question, going to cheaper flimsier wire and that, but i think it was much better before.)
before it sounded super accurate, but now... it's like when you have a party, and it's close friends and people you like and there's a nice atmosphere, and then later on a couple of idiots turn up, who ring their idiot mates who then wade in and trash the place and steal all the good beer

[awkwardbydesign]

In the 80s people started experimenting with thin solid core cables; I remember hearing an Albarry amped system at a dealer's in Stockport, and it sounded pretty good with telephone wiring as speaker cable, very thin solid core.
I think if it sounds good TO YOU, and doesn't make the amp unstable, then why not go with it? High capacitance cable (plaited, for example) can cause trouble sometimes, but other than that, I doubt if it would hurt. A short circuit, or open circuit with a valve amp, would be a bad thing though, so if your original cable keeps breaking, maybe a different thin/cheap cable?
The best record player I ever had was an old Dansette in the 60s with a threepenny piece cellotaped to the headshell. I knew no better, so I was happy (and stoned!). Too much knowledge causes pain.

[mickb69]

ha ha, i dig that.

i'll give it another shot with the cheap(er) wire.

they are'nt solid core or anything, they are very fine strands.
honestly, the clarity and "sound imaging" was very obvious with the thin wire,
but now the sound is like it's in a box at the other end of the room, there is still bass and treble and volume, it does'nt sound out of phase, just not really MUCH better than my old hi fi now, and what's worse is the pickup is amplifying hiss and crackle and bad things.

how will i know if it's making the amp unstable?

[mickb69]

oh, also with both cables, i had them bi wired, twisted together from the "direct" (that does'nt mute when you plug headphones in) outputs of the amps speaker connections, so whilst the "dental floss" wire is so thin, each speaker has the sound carried through two sets of wire per speaker,
as opposed to pushing the signal through a tiny path.

also, the thin wire is much longer, but not too long (all equal lengths)
than the thick wire which is very short. (also equal lengths)

[nat]

Though in general, the idea of using really thin wire isn't great, since it's increased resistance wastes power, it also affects damping, and maybe in the case of your amp and speakers, that's a good thing.
It's worth remembering that there is an awful lot of very thin wire in the the voice coils of the drivers, so the idea that you have to have great thick rods of copper or silver blah blah blah is kind of peculiar. Use what sounds good.
In response to the original question of the thread, in the late 60s and through the 70s a lot of records were recorded using really wretched electronics -- superficially clearer than older tube stuff, maybe, but gritty and harsh. The more revealing the system, the more you hear all the problems with the recording chain. Some argue that there is some sort of karmic law saying the better the music or performance, the worse the recording.
A cheerful thought, no?

[goatbreath]

If You want Blood and Live at last are both pretty nasty recordings as far as sounding like a fully produced record..They are both live and captured what was in the hall..So actually I guess true hifi.It probably is the recordings,,Heaven and Hell I would have to check again..If you want Blood can sound fizzy..

I love the recordings of the first 2 Sabbath albums by the way,,the guitar sound actually sounds like a guitar through and amp etc..The Drums are brilliant,,really natural..I always felt by the time they got to the 80s..A lot of production either sounded like it was coming through a ghetto blaster,It didn't sound like a snare drum it sounded like a bomb going off,,then lots of reverb added to it,or so polished with pristine effects,,it sounded clinical and took away the power of the instruments and replaced them with a sanitised version there of..A hell of a lot of 80s heavy rock recordings I just don't like.

[mickb69]

cheers guys, i'l put the thin wire on again and see what it sounds like again.

ha ha, the first two sabbath albums could'nt be anything else but pure could they, they really were nutters.
i'd like to get the early albums, but they're a bit hard to get hold of, also all the rock and heavy metal stuff seems to have been played to death, literally

[awkwardbydesign]

how will i know if it's making the amp unstable?

It will go BANG! Seriously though, you could get swirling or warbling noises for example; but if you didn't get that before, I doubt it will be problem.

[mickb69]

cheers guys,
after much arsing about, and rewiring up of speakers the bad records still sound bad, but better with the thicker cable, so i've gone back to that as everything else sounds better with it... i think....

the only trouble i have now is that when i was in the record shop earlier, i had to ring my wife to get her to check an album that i thought i already had, and if she looks again she will see the difference in amount of stuff there since i got back and start to ask awkward questions...