The X Files (merged topic)

[cafe latte]

I could not have put it better myself ld
Regards
CL

[cafe latte]

The fact that NO manufacture does this speaks volumes.

Maybe it's like some pharmaceuticals on the market. If they are not superior to what's already out there then that's a death sentence to the potential for profits, so instead of paying for head-to-head studies pharmaceutical companies just show the difference with placebo. There's too much at stake for them.

Also the problem with the sort of demo you attended is you, basically our quite rubbish human brain. It is fact that the brain cant remember sonic differences it heard a few seconds ago, it even has trouble with an instant switch and needs instant swaps to be repeated to pick up differences.

It may be true for the kinds of subtle differences that appear with cables (or the "alleged" differences as you would say) but I don't think that is a generalizable statement about the human brain, though I don't know the cognitive science literature behind it. I haven't seen anything about cables specifically, but Harman International has been doing blinded trials with speakers in their listening room for some time that confirms the ability of people to consistently discriminate between speakers from sound alone (if you haven't read/heard about this this setup, do a google search; it's remarkable and rigorous - they have a motorized rotating floor that puts speakers into position behind an optically opaque but acoustically transparent screen). They have looked at whether musical preference (jazz, classical, rock, etc), ethnicity, gender, etc. make any difference in whether a certain person is more or less likely to prefer a certain quality of speaker. What they found is that all people universally prefer certain qualities in speakers and rank them as better when they perform better in these domains, and it's the usual stuff we think of (mostly flat frequency response, phase accuracy, etc). Trained listeners did perform better than untrained ones in some respects. However, it wasn't like people who listened to classical wanted the flat response and those who like rock / hip hop wanted a bass emphasis or that they picked between speakers in a fashion that was no better than chance. Here is a link to one of their studies that illustrates a few of the findings (but not all). Great reading:

Differences in Performance and Preference of Trained versus Untrained Listeners in Loudspeaker Tests: A Case Study: http://www.aes.org/e-lib/download.cfm?ID=12206&name=harman

You cant seriously think that a positive proven study would not be good for sales of a cable. Imagine the advert "The only scientifically proven cable tested and shown to be as prefered in blind tests." Hmm starting to sound like a cat food advert . Anyway if it were possible to decern differences in audio cables with double blind testing ALL cable companies would set up the tests as there is no better advert for your product as there are few other products bought on blind faith. The reason no companies have jumped at the chance to prove their wares is they can't..
Regards
CL

[pulsetsar]

Would your opinion of plausibility change if you discovered that peak mains current does not change with sound level in power amps, and the shortest mains current pulses happen at zero output ? Here's how it really works :

This was a great explanation; thanks. If this is indeed true for all amps, then it certainly makes the idea that audible differences between power cables result from current rise/response time implausible. I'll have to digest this, and the article to which you linked, a bit more, though.

[pulsetsar]

You cant seriously think that a positive proven study would not be good for sales of a cable.

No, I don't think that, which is why I didn't write it.

[pulsetsar]

If you go through this in the practice mode and find you are not getting about 80-90% of the answers correct, then you are probably not going to hear the kinds of subtle differences others claim are present between cables.

Anybody remember Rocky9, in which we demonstrated that results of purely behavioural based test questions can be an excellent predictor of whether one is prone to perceive 'diferences' in cables ? Questions which involve no listening, and have nothing to do with hifi in any sense at all.

So one can take a psychometric questionaire which will predict pretty well whether one is vulnerable to perceive such things. It has nothing to do with hearing, or cognition. It is an issue with psychology of perception, and expectation bias.

Plus, you've entirely ignored the latest revelation that mains cable current doesn't actually change, no matter what sound is being played, for many amplifiers............this is way too significant not to comment on !

Yeah, I'm out of sync with the thread, it seems. I did end up replying.

I'm not sure if your comment on the psychometric questionnaire above is related to the software program I referenced or a separate point? If you didn't actually check out the Harman program, please note that it is NOT a questionnaire. It is a listening test that takes recorded music (either the built in samples or user-provided ones) and applies various filters, distortions, effects that relate to the evaluation of playback equipment and allows you to test your discriminatory ability. The answers are either right or wrong. It starts off pretty easy in each domain and then gets progressively harder. Completely separate from this discussion, if you haven't used it or a similar metric yet, check it out. It's pretty awesome.

[aardvarkash10]

Would your opinion of plausibility change if you discovered that peak mains current does not change with sound level in power amps, and the shortest mains current pulses happen at zero output ? Here's how it really works :

This was a great explanation; thanks. If this is indeed true for all amps, then it certainly makes the idea that audible differences between power cables result from current rise/response time implausible. I'll have to digest this, and the article to which you linked, a bit more, though.

Its not true for all amps - only those that operate predominantly in class A or AB. Reality is that this is most amps referred to as "audiophile". Certainly the vast majority of tube amps are class A, AB1 or AB2.

In any case, where the amps power supply is properly designed it will isolate the audio circuit from oddities in the the power line supply - thats a major part of its job after all.

[cafe latte]

You cant seriously think that a positive proven study would not be good for sales of a cable.

No, I don't think that, which is why I didn't write it.

Apologies if I misunderstood you, but it seemed that what you were getting at. You have to admit though if any cables company had any chance of a double blind test working in their favor they wouls all have set them up.
Regards
CL

[Ldg]

..I'm not sure if your comment on the psychometric questionnaire above is related to the software program I referenced or a separate point?

No, it's quite seperate. One can tell whether one is likely to be in the group vulnerable to perceive such things, or not, just by answering non-hifi related questions. One doesn't have to listen to anything ! It cropped up here on another thread. That's hard to explain in the absence of at least some psychological influence. And seems like another brick in the wall.

[Ldg]

... You have to admit though if any cables company had any chance of a double blind test working in their favor they wouls all have set them up.

Yes. They can't really even admit doubt, when you think of it. And one might think that demonstration recordings would be an obvious thing to do, if an effect were tangible. For a manufacturer, I mean. One can draw one's own conclusions from the absence of this too.

Personally, I find it astonishing that an expectation of a positive effect exists within sections of the audiophile community. In some publications, it is taken for granted, not even qualified, or questioned. I wonder how that was ever possible to establish. But I expect that is the target market for many of these products, and within that market, there is nothing to prove, it's accepted by those who buy. Audiophile literature must play its role. I think it's truly fascinating, because IMO it's mostly based on phantom effects.

[aardvarkash10]

hmmmn - items that have properties and abilities attributed to them without evidence or proof beyond claims of supernatural or paranormal events that defy rational scientific explanation.

Are cables the madonna statues of the audiophile religion?

What next - "My jaw dropped and stigmata formed on my hands!"?

[Ldg]

And here's a new icon :

[JaS]

I tried some of those fancy solid core cables in my AV system, I think they were made by Moth products? The image definitely had more width and height with less picture noise, inky blacks etc. Unfortunately during a particularly fast moving car chase they electrocuted my pet ferret and had to go back

Regards,
JaS

[aardvarkash10]

haha! Down here we refer to those as Kotanga - its the indiginous word for car aerial...

[jake]

So let me follow your logic. Blind listening tests are never performed because they don't work in the manufacturer's favor. If only there were some accurate blind listening tests,they would certainly prove all cables sound the same.
Interesting theory.