Absolute Polarity?

[andyr]

Andy: Maybe simply try with headphones (most of those are single-driver anyway...)?

Greetings from Munich!

Manfred / lini

Excellent suggestion, Manfred. I don't listen to headphones but I have a friend who has a pair of those famous 80s(?) electrostatic headphones, so I'll ask him to bring them over next time he comes round.

But I wonder if headphones are a reliable source of sound for my experiment? When I last listened to these headphones, I could not cope with the illusion that the sound was located in the middle of my head - I'm used to there being a soundstage out in front of me, which has layers of depth. Possibly, being able to pick up reverse (absolute) polarity requires such a soundstage presentation, to be audible?

Regards,

Andy

[awkwardbydesign]

Cryogenic treatment; http://www.nitrofreeze.com/toolsteels.html
The point is, there is a difference, and the effects are not fully understood.
And for those who insist on double blind tests, we are talking about subtle SUBJECTIVE effects, not drukqs that could kill people, for heavens sake! Besides, I remember Thalidomide, it went through all the tests that were considered relevant, and look what happened there.
PS my computer is misspelling, it's not me.

[aardvarkash10]

subtle or not, subjective or not, any effect should be reliably and demonstrably repeatable, otherwise its not attributable, surely?

Blah blah thalidomide... one swallow doesn't make a summer, and the failure of one drug (or many actually - I can quote plenty more) to be identified as harmful at testing doesn't invalidate the test method.

The effects are not fully understood is a cop out. For a start, it assumes an effect. Even given that minor fault, they should at least be understood to the point of a commonly agreed mechanism. Cryo on audio cables (as an example) is not even in the ballpark of this.

btw, if cryo is so sota, where's the cryo industry for, say, medical industry electronics?

Its this sort of denial of reasonable experimental (or even engineering) method that makes all the weird end of audio so entertaining - so many quacks with a product and marketing budget, so many suckers with money....

I don't necessarily put Abso-Pol in this sphere - as I noted earlier, some well respected people and several studies have identified a repeatable effect and a causal mechanism under limited conditions.

Your computer is forgiven.

[aardvarkash10]

Andy, I'm combing through your previous posts to the thread in search of the coded reference to "Trevor Chappell". I haven't found it yet, but I will!

Who TF's "Trevor Chappell"??

Regards,

Andy

The infamous underarm bowler...

"(Greg) Chappell told his brother Trevor to bowl underarm along the ground for the final delivery of a limited-overs international against New Zealand on February 1, 1981. The action prevented tailender Brian McKechnie hitting the six runs required for a tie in the first match of the finals series.

Trevor Chappell, a three-Test veteran and the lesser-known younger brother of Australian captains Ian and Greg, said at least it meant he was famous for something. Australian wicketkeeping great Rod Marsh, now head coach at Australia's cricket academy, said the only positive to come from the incident was the rule change outlawing the ploy.

After retiring from first-class cricket in 1986, Trevor Chappell played several seasons of Sydney grade cricket with North Sydney and coached the Gordon Women's Cricket Club and was subsequently engaged by Sri Lanka as a fielding coach and had a spell as Bangladesh's national coach."

[awkwardbydesign]

aardvarkash10-"I don't necessarily put Abso-Pol in this sphere - as I noted earlier, some well respected people and several studies have identified a repeatable effect and a causal mechanism under limited conditions."
Thank you; under limited conditions, ie. one piece of music(heavy bass drum, sharp transient, complex overtones, etc), one hifi setup (Heybrook HB3 speakers, Gyrodec with Decca London Supergold, as far as I can remember, and I forget the rest), well respected people (my wife for one; do YOU want to tell her she is not well respected? and other non hifi nerds), could hear the effect when the connections were reversed. How anal do you want to get with this? Why is there so much denial? Repeating the conditions is impossible, but that does not invalidate the results, just because people don't like them.
Agreed, one bad result doesn't necessarily invalidate a test method, but it certainly casts some doubt. And one unrepeatable result doesn't mean the effect doesn't exist.
Most of human existence has occured without scientific explanation, and science has now become a religion, anyone who doesn't follow the doctrine is a heretic and shouldn't be listened to.
I thought it was known as the scientific METHOD, one way of explaining what we experience of the world. One way, NOT the only way, or has the open mind now become closed, as many other religions decree?
I find it sad that people's honest experiences are denigrated in this manner, and perhaps that helps explain why so many distrust the religion of science.
And my computer said thanks.

[awkwardbydesign]

ld- "Such things are simply useless to me if the basis of perception isn't real. Implication is one also needs to believe, in order to perceive it. Or, to the exact point, the outcome depends on expectation."
Or, to the exact point, a closed mind mind means a refusal to perceive it.

[steve195527]

Hi,

this post is included in "Other Stuff" because it pertains to the sound of one's system.

Absolute Polarity refers to ensuring one's equipment emits sound in the same polarity as the original recorded event. That is, if one drum makes contact with one's ears with the positive side of its sound wave, then it is pertinent that this be reproduced that same way, instead of the reverse (ie- the trough of the wave meeting one's ears first).

I have never experimented with this, and have always felt it is of no consequence, despite the inclusion of an Absolute Phase switch in some rare preamps. The switch permits instant comparisons between conditions of Absolute Phase, versus Reverse Phase.

One alternate method of comparison would be to reverse the connections to BOTH speakers in one's system, to compare the sound back and forth ("regular" versus reversed).

Having never experimented with this, my guess is that it is of no consequence, but there might be some other ideas on this. Any views on this exotic consideration?

Regards,
bauzace50

B50, you need to get hold of Clark Johnson's seminal book on this subject, called "The Wood Effect".

As you might imagine, the fact that a whole book has been published on this topic means that some people, at least, think it is very important. I would love to have a preamp or CDP or phono stage which allowed phase reversal ... but I've not been so lucky.

AIUI:
* incorrect absolute polarity can screw up the sound in a number of ways.
* however, not all recording engineers are fastidious about making sure their mics are correctly connected up - so a polarity ("phase") reversal switch is a great idea.
* worse, though, is the situation where some mics in the mix are in correct polarity ... and other are not!!
* some people (many people?) are not very sensitive to incorrect absolute polarity; if you are one of these lucky ones ... you needn't stress about it. And you certainly don't have to choose a component simply because it has a polarity reversal switch!
* as well as this, your ability to recognise incorrect absolute polarity also depends on the speakers you have. If you have multi-way speakers which have 1 driver reversed, compared to the other(s), then this makes it extremely hard to differentiate between correct absolute polarity and reversed absolute polarity. Obviously single-driver, no XO speakers are an advantage, here.

Regards,

Andy

With a Lecson AC1 pre switching the tone control switch between cancel and out reverses polarity(tone controls still stay "flat")and there is a subtle difference in the sound,mainly in the bass region,the recommended setting was "out" but only because,according to Bob Stuart,the cancel position extended the high frequency too much and could lead to transient intermodulation distortion:-he designed the amp so that each piece further along from the source had a wider bandwidth than the one preceding it

[Ldg]

a closed mind mind means a refusal to perceive it.

That admits perception can depend upon expectation then !

Even an 'open-mind' is seldom such, because one is testing a suggestion which one has already been exposed to. Yes, such things work both ways. So how can anyone tell whether a perceived effect is real or phantom ?

Personally, I think it's easy to recognise the possibility of perception bias in a situation. Generally it crops up widely, characteristically lacks a mechanism, and has disputed and contradicted testimonies. Aadvarkash10's examples.

It might lack a recognised basis in common sense, and not be explanable in conventional terms, or not be studied and accepted within a pro body?

It might lack convenient measurement methods, and lack published standard results ?

It might elude being recordable and reproducable between systems, or elude conclusive A/B switch test results ?

If above risk factors are strong enough, chances are the candidate effect will also fail independent well conducted blind listening tests. In which case, it might as well be considered phantom, or not real. I can't make personal use of it, it's useless. AFAIK, that's where we are here with absolute phase.

There reaches a point where strength of other evidence and argument can contradict perception, and the question of whether perceptions are real or not becomes awkward. Surely such things matter, and are interesting per se ?!

[awkwardbydesign]

I wish we who disagree could all sit round a beer (or 2) and discuss. I feel sure we would find more common ground than we do at the moment. Sigh.
This is one of the reasons I dislike texting; also I can't type.

[bauzace50]

Fellewes awll,

thankyou for so many dedicated and focused comments. The matter is squarely living in the grooves of controversy, which was not the original intention. But one thing is clear: absolute polarity can be heard or not heard depending on each person's makeup, or equipment.

I am leting go of this matter since I do not hear changes in polarity. Nobody called advance names on the first one to let go ! So, that leaves a clear field for the next ones to let go. No need to go into infinity adding "the next comment" and "the next reply".

The cheapie AT carbon fiber P-mount arrived today, and clamors for groove tracking. Thankyou for all your dedicated comments, and don't fear the strangely curious experience of letting go.

Regards,
bauzace50

[Audie]

About 25 years ago I owned an Allen Wright RTP preamp which could switch absolute phase, used with Maggie MG3's and Quiclsilver Monos. I found a preference for one setting, but it changed from record to record and side to side. It probably also changed from track to track, but I don't think I was that fussy! The differences were small and I did not miss the option when I parted with the preamp.

Audie.

[Ldg]

Except in balanced circuits, inverting phase in an analog amplifier/preamp nearly always involves an extra stage and/or alternate signal path.

[awkwardbydesign]

About 25 years ago I owned an Allen Wright RTP preamp which could switch absolute phase, used with Maggie MG3's and Quiclsilver Monos. I found a preference for one setting, but it changed from record to record and side to side. It probably also changed from track to track, but I don't think I was that fussy! The differences were small and I did not miss the option when I parted with the preamp.

Audie.

I wonder if it changed from track to track because that is how the bass changed phase, and you are one of those people who CAN hear the difference. I do think it is likely to be transients on bass notes that are most audible; at least that is what I heard. Look at the open backed bass drum in most rock drum kits, there is a pulse of compression coming at you as it is hit. If you stand in front of it you can feel the pulse. Like a racing classic motorbike, where the exhaust pulse will literally blow your hat off, but only on the compression pulse.
As others have said, absolute phase is probably random in most studios, but that doesn't mean no-one can hear it. In most cases for most people it is probably not important.

[Ldg]

How can you be so sure that anyone can tell the difference, rather than be prone to phantom perception, and expectation bias, which is an acknowledged part of the human condition, after all ? The awkward fact remains that, in well conducted listening tests there is no evidence that anyone can tell the difference, AFAIK. Quite the opposite. And no, in recordings of kick drums, even lf impact feels the same. That one would be so obvious if only it were true.

Where there is an inversion switch, except in balanced circuits, there is always a different signal path/extra stage. Which, even if Audie's perception has a real basis, can't be ignored if one is being rigorous.

At best, one should say it's unclear whether anyone can really perceive the difference in the classic sense of it being real. Rather than asserting that 'some can', which is obviously unclear, at best.

At least in the case of absolute phase, there is a tangible physical phenomemum. One can't say the same for lots of other phantom perception candidates and hopefuls