Can PVC record sleeves damage vinyl?

[Superbarands]

You could say that awty, Hanuman and myself all live in a similar climate but Bob Stanley, whose article prompted this discussion, doesn't.
Does London get hot and humid?

Not at all Rusty. It's very mild in London. No Heat issues. Humid, maybe, depending on the house or apartment, room you store your records. I don't think humidity would cause a chemical reaction with a PVC outer sleeve,...more likely to me extreme heat that would do this,...which is what Bob Stanely is refering to...

[Superbarands]

You could say that awty, Hanuman and myself all live in a similar climate but Bob Stanley, whose article prompted this discussion, doesn't.
Does London get hot and humid?

Yes,.. Rusty. It's very mild in London. No Heat issues. Humid, maybe, depending on the house or apartment, room you store your records. Tne BBC Masters must have been stored around London to. I don't think humidity would cause a chemical reaction with a PVC outer sleeve,...more likely to me extreme heat that would do this,...which is what Bob Stanely is refering to...

[Superbarands]

Again,...my big QUESTION MARK on this Times article is wether the author is referring to INNER or OUTER sleeves being the cause of "Misting".

It's not very clear at all but the more I read it the more I think he is actually talking about "Inner" sleeves causing damage...

Any thoughts?

[JaS]

The comment 'the two can effectively fuse' implies that he's talking about records being in contact with the sleeve. However, an 800g PVC sleeve is an outer sleeve, unless he is talking about storing picture discs, which sound terrible anyway? I also can't find any evidence of his claim that the BBC library has suffered from using these sleeves

I can't help thinking that the theory that PVC sleeves cause damage originates from this document, which is clearly talking about inner sleeves (ie contact damage):

The Care and Handling of Recorded Sound Materials By Gilles St-Laurent
National Library Of Canada January 1996

Grooved discs
Do not use paper or cardboard inner sleeves and do not store records without inner sleeves.

Use soft polyethylene inner sleeves. Do not use record sleeves made of PVC.

Remove grooved discs from the jacket (with the inner sleeve) by bowing the jacket open by holding it against the body and applying a slight pressure with a hand. Pull the disc out by holding a corner of the inner sleeve. Avoid pressing down onto the disc with the fingers as any dust caught between the sleeve and the disc will be pressed into the grooves.

Remove grooved discs from the inner sleeve by bowing the inner sleeve and letting it slip gradually into an open hand so that the edge falls on the inside of the thumb knuckle. The middle finger should reach for the centre label. Never reach into the sleeve.

To hold a disc, place the thumb on the edge of the disc, and the rest of the fingers of the same hand on the centre label for balance. Use both hands on the edge to place disc on turntable.

The problems others have reported in this thread all seem to point to problems with humidity/heat during storage (not that his makes it any less serious)? Bob Stanely (who he?) doesn't even claim to have suffered from the problem himself, just that 'some people swear' that they do and he 'isn't risking it'.

Regards,
JaS

[Superbarands]

I also can't find any evidence of his claim that the BBC library has suffered from using these sleeves

Regards,
JaS

I know,..I did some reserach to and found nothing on this....

[Ldg]

I wonder if the reason the records can't be cleaned and recovered is that the cause is something actually removed from the vinyl ? The obvious one being volatile plasticisers.

Half a stupid theory is that pvc sleeves somehow have an affinity for plasticisers. So set up a concentration gradient, and diffusion pressure to leach them out of the record vinyl. It's the only thing I can think of that might actually work through polythene liners, and laminated covers. Sort of fits with elevated temperature as an accelerant. But I still find it incredible.

Do records with surface noise caused this way play OK wet, perchance ?

If it's 'something removed', there's always the prospect of putting it back, I suppose.......first one has to work out what exactly is happening ?!

[awty]

Do records with surface noise caused this way play OK wet, perchance ?

If it's 'something removed', there's always the prospect of putting it back, I suppose.......first one has to work out what exactly is happening ?!

Wet play makes little difference. What ever the chemical reaction is, it has etched into the vinyl. I have bought second hand records that have a rash from the inner sleeve and as mentioned it will clean off.
Maybe you can replicate whats happening in a controlled environment?....if you can be bothered.
The moral of the story is its not a good idea to store your records for a long period of time in a hot confined space with plastic covers on.

[Hanuman]

Here's a quick poll of my older collection:

Records in PVC sleeve:

From 56 examples:

Both Sides Affected: 21 (37.5%)
One Side Affected: 8 (14.3%)
Neither Side affected: 27 (48.2%)


Records Not in any sleeve:

From 28 examples:


Both Sides Affected: 1 (3.6%)
One Side Affected: 5 (17.8%)
Neither Side affected: 22 (78.6%)


And here's an interesting exhibit:





The effect that I'm trying to show is not easy to photograph but it should be discernible that the bubbling of this record sleeve has a different pattern at the label area of the record. I have a couple of others wherein the label area is flat, surrounded by the bubbling. I should point out that a minority of sleeves in the collection show this type of effect to any degree. Oddly enough the record inside is one of the unaffected ones but another Oldfield disc close by was badly affected on one side only. It's entirely possible, I suppose, that this sleeve has been affected by an adjacent record. This evidence proves, though, that there is some interaction possible and in fact happening between the vinyl of the records and the plastic sleeves.

[Rustyhook]

I wonder if the reason the records can't be cleaned and recovered is that the cause is something actually removed from the vinyl ? The obvious one being volatile plasticisers.

Half a stupid theory is that pvc sleeves somehow have an affinity for plasticisers. So set up a concentration gradient, and diffusion pressure to leach them out of the record vinyl. It's the only thing I can think of that might actually work through polythene liners, and laminated covers. Sort of fits with elevated temperature as an accelerant. But I still find it incredible.

Do records with surface noise caused this way play OK wet, perchance ?

If it's 'something removed', there's always the prospect of putting it back, I suppose.......first one has to work out what exactly is happening ?!

It does indeed look like something has been removed, which is why I asked earlier if awty and Hanuman would agree that the surface of the record now feels different.
To me it is slightly smoother.
Another way to describe how the surface looks. Have you ever had your plastic trim on your car fade? It's a bit like that.
Also the background noise from my listening can either be consistent or a slurping noise.
A curious thing did happen with one of my 45's. In one, between the record and the paper cover was a small advertising insert about 3 x 4 inches. The area this covered on the vinyl was untouched, with the rest of the surface dull.

[Hanuman]

It does indeed look like something has been removed, which is why I asked earlier if awty and Hanuman would agree that the surface of the record now feels different.
To me it is slightly smoother.
Another way to describe how the surface looks. Have you ever had your plastic trim on your car fade? It's a bit like that.
Also the background noise from my listening can either be consistent or a slurping noise.
A curious thing did happen with one of my 45's. In one, between the record and the paper cover was a small advertising insert about 3 x 4 inches. The area this covered on the vinyl was untouched, with the rest of the surface dull.

I had the similar case of a clearly visible silhouette of the cover artwork on the record surface.

I'm not aware of any difference in surface texture between bad and good.

[Mark E Smith's Dentist]

Bob Stanley (who he?)

He's one of the two blokes in St Etienne and an ex-NME journalist. Good guy.



JT

[Superbarands]

Interesting,...looks like the MODS changed the title of my thread. Was it too harsh?????

[JaS]

Interesting,...looks like the MODS changed the title of my thread. Was it too harsh?????

Too much like a tabloid headline

Regards,
JaS

[Superbarands]

You mean good Investigative journalism JaS!!!!!