Can PVC record sleeves damage vinyl?

[Hanuman]

My opinion is exactly the same as ld's. Also:

Quite a few had a surface that looked dull and when played had a consitent background hiss.

Can't see why this should be blamed to the inner sleeve materials when this perfectly fits the description of a record worn by too many playbacks with a cheap record player at very high (>8gm) pressures, probably with a worn sapphire, or a jukebox on similar condition. Given that it's a 45RPM single, the latter is probable. (A sapphire stylus is rated for 50h of stylus life - how many bar owners actually changed the sapphire stylus on their jukeboxes every week?!) Even more likely if the record itself is made not from vinyl but from polystyrene.

Occam's razor!

The razor knocks your analysis down the list a bit, flavio81, because of all the assumptions you've just made in the above. There's something definitely going on here and it's not wear. I just now pulled out a Bjork double-45 that's not that old and not played much and the dull surface is there (much to my horror) along with the noise and, yes, it was in a PVC cover although now it is not! Incidentally I think it's the outer not inner sleeve that is the suspected culprit. I have dozens of my older records that were transported to here (Bangkok) from Melbourne that exhibit the exact symptoms described - a dulling of the surface and noisy playback. Most of them haven't been played since transportation and they were never that way in Australia. The vast majority of that older collection have the PVC outer covers that were very typical of Aussie record packaging. One record had the cover artwork "shadowed" into the dullness (believe it or not) which made me think that some kind of radiation was involved - it was in a group of records stored underneath an LCD TV. But it's the only example that has that exact manifestation so the radiation theory might be a red herring but I'd love to know what others think about that. That aforementioned Bjork disc is the first and only, as I'm aware, of my recent (2007 & later) record purchases to be afflicted by this syndrome and it's one of very few of those purchases to be in a protective cover of the type in question so let's just state that there is a notable coincidence here.

It seems likely to me that climate is a factor, but not the sole cause.

[JaS]

It seems likely to me that climate is a factor, but not the sole cause.

It could just be Australian LP covers if this thread is anything to go by

Regards,
JaS

[Ldg]

I have dozens of my older records that were transported to here (Bangkok) from Melbourne that exhibit the exact symptoms described - a dulling of the surface and noisy playback. Most of them haven't been played since transportation and they were never that way in Australia. The vast majority of that older collection have the PVC outer covers that were very typical of Aussie record packaging.

Hi Hanuman, very interesting. All records were stored. Most in pvc sleeves. Most show the problem. But, that's not quite enough to say the cause is related to pvc sleeves. Only if the set of records that show the problem is the same as those stored in pvc sleeves, and vica versa, can that be said. And then, only if there's enough records in each set to be valid.

Hanuman, about how many records in each set ? PVC/problem, PVC/no problem, no PVC/problem, no pvc/no problem ?

Thx

[Rustyhook]

With my 45's they were stored in cardboard boxes each holding around 100 discs.
Probably had around 300 PVC outer sleeves with the rest in poly outer sleeves out of a total of 1500 45's.
So Pvc sleeved records were scattered randomly throughout collection.
I put my favourite records in the PVC sleeves as at the time I thought this was better protection for the cover.
Only records affected were those in PVC sleeves, plus any in a poly sleeve either directly in front or behind a record in a PVC sleeve.
So the 45 in a poly sleeve in front of a PVC sleeve had it's b-side damaged and a record in poly sleeve directly behind a PVC sleeve had it's a-side damaged.

[Ldg]

Only records affected were those in PVC sleeves, plus any in a poly sleeve either directly in front or behind a record in a PVC sleeve.
So the 45 in a poly sleeve in front of a PVC sleeve had it's b-side damaged and a record in poly sleeve directly behind a PVC sleeve had it's a-side damaged.

So the effect went through a poly sleeve.........? That's pretty odd. Polythene's not exactly permeable. But then again, presumably the effect must be implied to go through the inner liner and (sometimes) laminated cover too. How strange.

[awty]

Its bloody upsetting, cause you buy these records when your younger and have to store them away for lack of space with a family and when you get them out again their ruined.
Sorry to hear some of yours went the same way Rustyhook.
Mine were stored in a wooden entertainment cabinet with sliding doors. It often had a TV on it or other electronic stuff and summers can get hot (30-35 C). So heat was the number one contributing factor. Some of the inner sleeves affected the vinyl as well, it looks like a rash (see photo). I dont know what the different materials in the sleeves were, but even paper inner sleeved albums were damaged and others were fine. I haven't counted them, but would probably affect about 1/3-1/2 of my collection (about 60" of records including packaging not including 45's) to some degree.

[awty]

Just to clarify that there is 2 chemical reactions taking place.
I have "Goodbye Yellow Brick Road" where only side one of the 2 album set was affected. So looks like a product of the outer sleeve.
On my "Buddha and the Chocolate Box" which has 3 sleeves to get through to vinyl has the rash caused by the inner sleeve.

Nothing I have tried will remove the rash and stop the hiss.

So if you live in a cool climate you probably haven't got much to worry about, But if your somewhere where room temperature can get past 30c then you should take heed.

[ripblade]

Its bloody upsetting, cause you buy these records when your younger and have to store them away for lack of space with a family and when you get them out again their ruined.
Sorry to hear some of yours went the same way Rustyhook.
Mine were stored in a wooden entertainment cabinet with sliding doors. It often had a TV on it or other electronic stuff and summers can get hot (30-35 C). So heat was the number one contributing factor. Some of the inner sleeves affected the vinyl as well, it looks like a rash (see photo). I dont know what the different materials in the sleeves were, but even paper inner sleeved albums were damaged and others were fine. I haven't counted them, but would probably affect about 1/3-1/2 of my collection (about 60" of records including packaging not including 45's) to some degree.

I always assumed vinyl was for keeps. Hearing of damage caused by some myserious chemical reaction is distressing. In your case awty, the "rash" in your photo resembles what I've seen on records stored in LDPE...the soft, largely clear plastic commonly used in older premium albums. This is a film and will wash off with water and soap.

Couldn't have happened to a better album.

In other cases I'm inclined to think environmental factors are at play...salt air, humidity (mold), etc. Especially so with albums stored in cardboard sleeves (virtually all of them!)

[awty]

No nothing will remove it, even strong solvents have no affect. The Elton John and Cat Stevens albums haven't been played since I bought them over 25 years ago.

The really odd thing most of the records weren't affected. I'm not sure why as they were side by side with others that were.......and all the LP's had plastic outer sleeves.

I've just check my singles, which were stored separately and only the ones in the thick plastic covers were affected. So I guess its mostly to do with the outer cover and heat.

[davidsss]

I haven't had PVC covers cause this problem on any of my records. My records have moved house with me until I bought a house nearly 20 years ago and have been in places where it can get hot although less humidity in Victoria. PVC outers can cause problems when they heat up and can stick to your record covers, I have had that happen.

In terms of cleaning I figure it is worth trying just about anything to clean a record which is stuffed unless cleaned. Have you tried warm water with one third vinegar? That doesn't harm the records anyway. How about glue or record re-virginiser? If none of that works try some solvents but ask here first to see if anyone has tried before and damaged their records.

DS

[Hanuman]

Hi Hanuman, very interesting. All records were stored. Most in pvc sleeves. Most show the problem. But, that's not quite enough to say the cause is related to pvc sleeves. Only if the set of records that show the problem is the same as those stored in pvc sleeves, and vica versa, can that be said. And then, only if there's enough records in each set to be valid.

Hanuman, about how many records in each set ? PVC/problem, PVC/no problem, no PVC/problem, no pvc/no problem ?

Thx

It's a bit like establishing the causal relationship between tobacco and cancer - not every smoker gets lung cancer. That old collection has been banished to a store-room outside but I had so many of these PVC covers that every record must have been in one or between two such packaged records. I've borrowed records from a couple of friends over the years (in both cases stored for 25+ years here in Thailand) and never saw the syndrome in either case. If I remember correctly neither set's records came packaged in any kind of plastic sleeve - I'm confident that's the case for one of those collections.

[awty]

I haven't had PVC covers cause this problem on any of my records. My records have moved house with me until I bought a house nearly 20 years ago and have been in places where it can get hot although less humidity in Victoria. PVC outers can cause problems when they heat up and can stick to your record covers, I have had that happen.

In terms of cleaning I figure it is worth trying just about anything to clean a record which is stuffed unless cleaned. Have you tried warm water with one third vinegar? That doesn't harm the records anyway. How about glue or record re-virginiser? If none of that works try some solvents but ask here first to see if anyone has tried before and damaged their records.

DS

Nothing will remove it, its etched into the vinyl. I've tried for example straight Isopropyl Alcohol (99.8%), PVA glue (tried pvc glue but that just wrecked it), every cleaning product under the sink, hot water as well as warm water......all has 0 affect and the records hiss.
The plastic has never stuck to any thing or has there been any moisture involved.
So if it hasnt happened to you good, but keep an eye out and check occasionally, maybe if I waited longer more would have been damaged.
Here is a photo of another affect, this had a paper inner sleeve. (Please note the choice of records I put up is purely random and doesn't reflect my taste in music, sometimes I wonder WTF I bought that. )

[Rustyhook]

awty is correct, nothing will clean these records. You can only throw them away.
It's as if the life has been drained from the vinyl.
A chemical reaction has happened.
It's not mould, it's not worn grooves or anything else you can think of that usually happens to vinyl.
Hanuman and awty, would you agree that the vinyl now feels different compared to a normal record?

[Rustyhook]

Let me throw a spanner in the works.
Reading awty's posts, he has a lot of LP's that have been affected as well as some 45's.
Hanuman I assume has damaged LP'S also.
I also had LP's in PVC outer sleeves but none of these were affected unless it was a twelve inch single or picture disc that was sold in a clear PVC outer sleeve that had direct contact with the surface of the vinyl, eg various Primitives coloured vinyl 12" which some of you might own.
My LP's were stored on shelves but in the same room as the 45's.
My locality is about 1200 km's north of awty where there is even more heat and humidity.
You could say that awty, Hanuman and myself all live in a similar climate but Bob Stanley, whose article prompted this discussion, doesn't.
Does London get hot and humid?