How much weight is enough to damage vinyl?

[Ldg]

Hi missan. Yes, I agree that indentation holds many keys to what really goes on at the stylus-groove interface. And I still strongly suspect it doesn't happen to any extent. Rather the stylus surfs the surface no matter what profile, and there's not much wear at all. I think all successful styli have contact profiles that enable this.

Friction, and its nature and origin, must also play its part.

Also, I think that all stylus profiles are devised to have crudely equivalent sharpness and groove wear factors. I also use line contact styli at max+ VTF without wear issues. It seems to me the best of all worlds to have LC styli paired with higher VTF supporting suspensions. Really, I was just mooting a candidate explanation for why there might be so few, because it otherwise seems a very good combination, IMO.

As I see it, there is very little wear in normal use, and so there is no material to be disposed of. No stylus is ever really a 'blade' because design is constrained to avoid it. That's why there are no very small minor radius styli, of course.

[missan]

I agree, fineline and high VTF seems good to me. I have switched the rubber in the suspensions on my Shibatas to a harder one, 2,5gf as nominal.
missan

[dlaloum]

Rather the stylus surfs the surface no matter what profile

A while back I read a post by Peter Ledermann from Soundsmith - in which he put this forward...

That styli in fact "surf" the groove, and further, that they are therefore taking a "sampling" of the groove wall, and not "tracking" it per se!
Which led to a further interesting comment that the system is prone to jitter, same as digital, based on variations in sampling rate, except in the case of vinyl it is generated by variations in tracking changing the sampling rate...

(I am paraphrasing and quoting from memory)

So various techniques that improve the sound, are designed to either improve tracking (sort of self evident) or to make the tracking more consistent... ie: not necessarily better at all points on the record, but more consistent across the entire record under all conditions - eliminate change, which itself is audible.

In any case, the Shure focus on trackability does appear to be correct in terms of wear, the higher the trackability the lower the wear, as most wear and tear issues appear to happen when mistracking and even micro-mistracking happens.

Sure there is a combination of "weight" (VTF), stylus profile, suspension compliance, suspension damping etc... which minimises wear - but does that combination serendipitously coincide with the same combination of parameters that provide the highest possible tracking ability?

bye for now

David

[Ldg]

....Sure there is a combination of "weight" (VTF), stylus profile, suspension compliance, suspension damping etc... which minimises wear - but does that combination serendipitously coincide with the same combination of parameters that provide the highest possible tracking ability?

Well, only in the sense that avoiding mistracking is generally accepted as the best thing one can do to minimise wear/damage. But putting aside wear/damage caused by mistracking for a moment, high trackability and low wear are generally opposed. Trackability improves with increased VTF, for example.

One has to always remember that wear is generally very low anyway, at least for configurations that don't mistrack. So increasing VTF to minimise mistracking without incurring other penalties would seem to be where the payback action is. And this often does seem to be available.

Which led to a further interesting comment that the system is prone to jitter, same as digital, based on variations in sampling rate, except in the case of vinyl it is generated by variations in tracking changing the sampling rate...

There may be a random force element depending on the nature of stylus-groove friction. Specifically the extent to which friction is stick-slip. I suppose that might involve states of bonding and tearing at the groove-stylus interface. Which might imply a potential wear mechanism. Other friction mechanisms might be fluid, or continuous sliding. Which involve little surface bonding, and very little wear/damage. Such things are likely to be influenced by specifics, especially the vinyl itself. Most likely to show up in some form as surface noise, as an indicator. Perhaps.

As one reduces VTF excessively, for a silent groove, crackle/pop surface noise increases. This is perhaps suggestive that at low VTF, stylus-groove friction becomes more stick-slip in nature. Interesting to otherwise explain? In which case, the nature of friction might be VTF dependant, and low VTF more stick-slip in character. And having some 'headroom' for preserving downforce whilst tracking might be advantageous to wear? Favouring configurations with adequate VTF 'headroom'.

[flavio81]

Rather the stylus surfs the surface no matter what profile

A while back I read a post by Peter Ledermann from Soundsmith - in which he put this forward...

That styli in fact "surf" the groove, and further, that they are therefore taking a "sampling" of the groove wall, and not "tracking" it per se!
Which led to a further interesting comment that the system is prone to jitter, same as digital, based on variations in sampling rate, except in the case of vinyl it is generated by variations in tracking changing the sampling rate...

(I am paraphrasing and quoting from memory)

I have read a similar quote by PL. But it is way to vague to convey anything useful.

[Ldg]

I agree, flavio81. I doubt such anecdote would have been intended in the same context.

[Ldg]

A few further thoughts :

Firstly, I wonder whether Shure were actually quite happy to be able to claim "no significant difference" for record wear with the hypereliptical tip, and considered this a success under the circumstances ? Just it otherwise seems an odd marketing communication, given that they had no obligation to say anything.

Secondly, that if stick-slip friction is associated with accelerated wear, it might occur before the onset of large scale mistracking, as 'effective downforce' becomes lighter. In which case there may be a penalty for not having enough VTF headroom, even though mistracking does not occur in normal use. There is no evidence. But since such would happen before the onset of mistracking, it would be hard to seperate from wear/damage associated with mistracking (which is accepted).

ie Is it just presumption that mistracking damage is caused by the stylus bouncing about ? One way to tell would be that such damage would be above the line of contact if it were caused whilst mistracking. Whereas if it were caused by bond/shear tearing, it would be on the line of contact.

[mtowns]

Whew ! Am I glad I read this before grinding my rediscovered platters to tatters. Yes, it's a little complex, but that's when a lot of technical findings really helps. Thanks. I guess a shiny stylus, long and thin, in an air suspension cartridge would keep the quality in the groove.

[Marine Boat]

Hello orlandoscarpa,
Welcome! Benvenuto! The simple reply: setting the tracking pressure at, or near, the heaviest specified pressure is the best option for record wear with each cartridge. That is the general rule, and easy answer.

It gets tricky however with DJ carts like that Stanton! How much weight is needed for it to track well when playing music might be quite a bit less than how much is needed for going "wicka-wicka-wicka".

Food for thought.

[funky]

I have switched the rubber in the suspensions on my Shibata

Missan, Please where can I buy such suspension rubbers?

[missan]

I have switched the rubber in the suspensions on my Shibata

Missan, Please where can I buy such suspension rubbers?

I use rubbers from lower compliance needles.
missan

[Twinhit]

Thank you Flavio!
A lot of excellent informative contributions you have been making.