Denon Dl-103r Any Users Here?

[bauzace50]

Hi,

It is true that the "R" has degrees of audible improvement in relation to the basic 103, and that is why Denon distinguish both models with the "R" designation and price.

And this is the crux of the matter. This hobby is into the pursuit of improvements regardless of degree or magnitude.

Loading and other setup procedures have audible consequence, which IS at the core of our hobby. But some of us, like myself, hit a ceiling when personal commitments or finances define that ceiling.

I have learned to let go of that pursuit when meeting some priorities. For example, letting go of a better cantilever, or refinements in loading, or in method of amplification. I DO BELIEVE CERTAIN TESTIMONIALS, but Let Go some leads for specific reasons, not only finances. The "Need To Balance Priorities" is a common thread in my territory.

So, thanks for the light of your testimonials,
b50

[EdAInWestOC]

b50,
The DL-103R uses oxygen free wire for its coils and has some minor changes to its suspension compared to the standard DL-103. Both cartridges use the same cantilever and stylus assembly used on almost all DL-103 variants.

I'm not sure if it was on this forum but some time ago someone did some research into the quality of the Denon stylus and their conical stylus is very good indeed. IIRC it was very highly polished and it was mounted very well in its alumnum cantilever.

Ed

[EdAInWestOC]

Well,well,

my budget will allow a retip, but no replaced cantilever, nor tweaked suspension. That is in the future but will not stop me from enjoying "The Brahms" now, as I call it. I am quite happy that it works so well right now, and in good company with you guys.

Thanks,
b50

b50,
FWIW...SoundSmith will charge extra if you want to replace the stylus in the existing cantilever. It is cheaper to go for their cantilever/stylus assemblies as listed on their website.

Ed

[Hanuman]

@b50, here's a couple of test results I think you'll be interested in. I had some test recordings of my DL-103 from June 2010, before the Expert Stylus modifications so was able to do a reliable before-and-after comparison. The first trace you see is a control - a comparison between my DL-103R done at the same time versus now to check the validity of the methodology. The '103R has not been altered and does not get much play. The source was the pink noise track of the Hi-Fi News Analogue Test LP (Side 1 Band 3). We have a yellow trace (now) mixed with a white trace (then) and a dotted blue line which shows the difference in frequency response.



I'm happy with that but note that there has been a very slight upward slope above 15K since June 2010.

The next one shows the original DL-103 in white and the results of the Paratrace diamond and sapphire cantilever modification in yellow:



That's not too subtle, obviously, and confirms my impression that the cartridge is brighter although I'd have to have cloth ears not to spot that. I have no way of knowing what relative contribution the diamond and cantilever have each made to this change of characteristic.

While I was in this mode I thought I'd have a look at the issue of resistive loading after a step-up-transformer. I used the DL-103R into an Ortofon Verto in its "A" configuration which provides 24dB gain for a recommended cartridge impedance range of 5-50 Ohms. Following this was an EAR 324 phono stage which has a selection of 5 resistive loading options on its MM input (input 2). I did recordings of the pink noise track at 15K, 47K & 100K and the following grab shows the comparison between the 15K (yellow) and 100K (white) traces:



I didn't bother to post the 47K result - it's basically identical to the 100K trace in both shape and level.


Not totally relevant but interesting anyway is the comparison of the '103R via the Verto versus directly into the MC input of the EAR 324 (therefore using the EAR tranformers):

[bauzace50]

Greetings Hanuman,
Thankyou for the revealing graphs! Much appreciated. I need some clarification, to test my own understanding. In parts of your text you mention a DL-103R, and in other parts of the text you mention a DL-103.
-A- Are there two cartridges involved here (ie- one "103R" and one "103")?

-B- Is the cartridge in Graph #2 the modified version of the one illustrated in Graph #1?

If we are talking of the same cartridge in both graphs, there are several conclusions to be had.
-1- The cartridge has a frequency response whith a very mild downward slope. THAT is my aural impression of my "103R" (very slight softening as the sound moves toward the treble). This is the actual impression at a good concert hall.

-2- The unmodified cartridge has very smooth response, with NO anomalies throughout its entire range. I strongly prefer this behavior.

-3- The modified cartridge shows an obvious anomaly in the treble range, consisting of a peaking response starting at 8 KHertz. This is the type of change I perceived in the Stanton 500 EE Mk II which SoundSmith modified for me with a ruby cantilever and special tip. Precisely the tonal change which I did not like, as compared with the unmodified version.

This is, also, the same anomaly I got when modifying one Sumiko BP-EVO 3 with a Paratrace. The response changed from a mild dryness to a strongly bright character. BUT this brightness does NOT occur in all modifications (I have NOT had this added brightness in two other "Paratrace-only" mods: Stanton 500 EE Mk II, Shure M97xE). No tonal change, but an agreeable delivery of finer details. Two succesful modifications, in my book.

In other words, tip and cantilever modifications done without a full re-engineering are demonstrated as hit-or-miss experiences. The beauty and care of the work is secondary to performance (as demonstrated with a BEAUTIFUL cantilever/tip modification to a Denon DL-300 I used, with the mildly rising treble response). Testimonials of owners are thus invaluable to candidates who contemplate specific modifications.

Regards, and thankyou all for your valuable testimonials,
bauzace50

[OneyedK]

The source was the pink noise track of the Hi-Fi News Analogue Test LP (Side 1 Band 3).

I think your measurements assume a white noise source.
8dB difference between low and high frequencies with any cart of the 103 series seems impossible to me

Another thing, the incorrect loading of a SUT and thus the cart, produces phase errors, not likely to be seen in a simple frequency plot, and certainly not with pink noise.

[Hanuman]

-A- Are there two cartridges involved here (ie- one "103R" and one "103")?

There are two cartridges involved - a DL-103 & a DL-103R. The standard '103 is the one with the Paratrace & sapphire cantilever. The '103R is in original form.

-B- Is the cartridge in Graph #2 the modified version of the one illustrated in Graph #1?

No, the 1st graph shows the difference between the recording I made in June 2010 of the DL-103R and a recording of the same cartridge made today. I did this comparison to satisfy myself that I could trust what came next.

The second graph compares the June 2010 recording of the unmodified DL-103 (I did a whole lot of cartridges that day) with today's recording of the same cartridge but one which now sports a different diamond and cantilever.

I'm using an EQ plugin that has a matching feature which is quite useful for this kind of detective work. Both graphs are actually two traces over-layed on top each other. The important line is the blue dotted line in the middle - it's the EQ settings needed to match the frequency profile of one recording to another. In this case with an identical test signal feeding the respective processing pipelines it is equivalent to the frequency response difference between the two pipelines, at least on that particular test signal.

If we are talking of the same cartridge in both graphs, there are several conclusions to be had.
-1- The cartridge has a frequency response whith a very mild downward slope. THAT is my aural impression of my "103R" (very slight softening as the sound moves toward the treble). This is the actual impression at a good concert hall.

Don't be fooled by the gentle downward slope of the pink noise traces - the level reduces by 3dB-per-octave (or should, this is normal for pink noise). You need to imagine the line rotated anti-clockwise a bit.

I do agree with your view of the DL-103R sound. It doesn't have the MC top emphasis and it is pretty flat but it's not the flattest MC in my collection. That would be the Dynavector Karat 17D3 - it has virtually no vices at all.

-2- The unmodified cartridge has very smooth response, with NO anomalies throughout its entire range. I strongly prefer this behavior.

It's quite impressive, I agree, but don't forget that the blue dotted line is not the response, it's the difference. Looking at the actual pink noise traces it's impressive out to 15K and rises by maybe 2-3dB beyond that to 20K although I'm guessing a bit given the pink noise slope.

-3- The modified cartridge shows an obvious anomaly in the treble range, consisting of a peaking response starting at 8 KHertz.

Yes, that's exactly how I see it and hear it. It's not subtle on the ear - it's obviously brigher than it was and is way brighter than the DL-103R is now. It's pretty exciting on the right recording and on others it's like Fuji Velvia - adds some welcome contrast to a murky scene.

This is the type of change I perceived in the Stanton 500 EE Mk II which SoundSmith modified for me with a ruby cantilever and special tip. Precisely the tonal change which I did not like, as compared with the unmodified version.

Now we need to know what's the main contributor to the brightness, the diamond or the cantilever.

This is, also, the same anomaly I got when modifying one Sumiko BP-EVO 3 with a Paratrace. The response changed from a mild dryness to a strongly bright character. BUT this brightness does NOT occur in all modifications (I have NOT had this added brightness in two other "Paratrace-only" mods: Stanton 500 EE Mk II, Shure M97xE). No tonal change, but an agreeable delivery of finer details. Two succesful modifications, in my book.

That's really interesting. I had my Koetsu re-tipped with the Paratrace at the same time as the '103 and it didn't come back with any obvious change of character - certainly nothing like the change that occurred with the Denon.

[Thomas_A]

Is it possible to do the same using the fixed bands on the test LP for comparison (1-20 kHz)?

T

[Ldg]

Excellent stuff, hanuman.

For whatever reason, there seems to be a correction factor of about 6dB per decade (x2 per decade), which I think one can see how such might arise. As you say, this 'rotates' the plots.

It doesn't affect the result, of course, just adds an odd gradient. I marked up one of your plots with an extra red line which shows where i think the nominal 'flat' gradient is :



This is a markup showing the original DL-103 in white, the Paratrace+cantilever in yellow, and the difference in blue. Nominal flat gradient is added in solid red, i think.

Prima facie, the original DL-103 is far nearer 'ideal'. And the paratrace+cantilever has a pronounced hf lift versus both DL-103 original, and versus a true-flat response. This, indeed, correlates with perceptions of 'bright' and lively, and perhaps is the modern taste. But not mine ! It is characteristic of quite a few modern MMs, in fact.

IMO, it serves as a reminder that the original DL-103 is a class act really. And those who would throw away the original stylus/cantilever in favour of 'superior' spec parts risk missing the point (excuse pun !), and performance, of the original DL-103/R design and build, as I see it. As per previous posts.

Measured frequency response of the DL-103R is posted on Paul Miller's site, which also supports hanuman's measurements here.

[bauzace50]

@ ld,

Thanks! Which supports, once again, the perception of many happy customers of both versions (plain and "R") over many years.

My initial exposure to Denon sound came with a DL-160, if memory serves. This was reinforced with a modified DL-300 on loan with modified boron & special tip. This had the Denon midrange signature, but the upper treble lift of the boron mod was apparent. From these two I have enough additional exposure to Denon sound, and can attest to flat extended bandwidth and freedom from nasties.

It is NO wonder that so many people who have used Denon cartridges keep on returning to the experience, which is so consistent throughout. Of course, I still miss my ex-17D3 sold to raise cash. Dearly misssed. It gives a VERY similar neutral sonic experience.

Regards, and blessings to you all in 2012.
bauzace50

[Hanuman]

Is it possible to do the same using the fixed bands on the test LP for comparison (1-20 kHz)?

T

I no longer have an unmodified DL-103 to measure.

Here's a look at the third-octave performance of the DL-103 before-and-after:


Unmodified DL-103:



Modified DL-103 (Paratrace diamond and sapphire cantilever):


These graphs also show proof of something I feel when listening to both of my DL-103s - slightly shy bass.

I've got one next that I should have posted in the first batch. It's the DL-103R (yellow) versus the unmodified DL-103 (white), both done in June 2010. The EAR 324 was set for correct loading per cartridge - 15Ω & 40Ω respectively:

[Ldg]

Good stuff, hanuman, thanks. The Paul Miller plot for the DL-103R doesn't have a bass droop though. What arm was this with, Hanuman ?

[Hanuman]

Good stuff, hanuman, thanks. The Paul Miller plot for the DL-103R doesn't have a bass droop though. What arm was this with, Hanuman ?

Thanks for the validation, LD.

It's a Fidelity Research FR64s on a Technics SP10MKII. Can't vouch for the accuracy of the HFN test record, of course.

I just had a quick check of all the June 2010 captures (four cartridges in all) and they've all got the droop to some extent.

[bauzace50]

Hanuman,

your recent graph shows significant improvement of the "R" in the region above 15KHz in that the "R" looks flat out to the end of the graph (15KHz to 20KHz...a 5KHz span!) while the plain 103 becomes (a) slightly unstable and (b) rolled off in that precise region.

It is good to correlate these findings with the descriptions made by Denon, and by personal auditions. "Something checks through", as Leonard Bernstein said in another context. Denon speak with moderation instead of hype.
Thanks for these illustrations.
b50