Wet playing revisited

[flavio81]

If anyone can suggest a legal alternative to isopropyl though I'd be interested to try it.
I've tried commercially available solutions and can't hear any improvement over my own boozy recipe.

I don't use isopropyl anymore. Distilled water with a few drops of the detergent/surfactant/tensioactive i indicated (concentrated windshield cleaner) works perfectly, and dries fast and clean, just in time.

[Ldg]

If anyone can suggest a legal alternative to isopropyl though I'd be interested to try it.
I've tried commercially available solutions and can't hear any improvement over my own boozy recipe.

I don't use isopropyl anymore. Distilled water with a few drops of the detergent/surfactant/tensioactive i indicated (concentrated windshield cleaner) works perfectly, and dries fast and clean, just in time.

Hi flavio81. I'm coming round to thinking distilled water plus minimal surfactant might well be best. Pending thinking about 'conditioning' additives !

[1200y3]

I only used distilled water and photo wetting agent as well. No other additives. I have used a 10% alcohol mixture, it only takes a small amount. Alcohol will control fungus or mold in the micro grooves.

The wetting agent I used was Kodak Photo-Flow (must be similar to Ilford) and it always dries before the record is over, so I keep applying it. But Kodak stated that it is not recommended for wet play, and Kodak also made records. As far as I can figure, it is not much different than diluted soap, but very powerful, because it is still diluted by the consumer.

I actually used wet playing to see if water the water blasting will polish a stylus. As far as I can tell, the stylus stays in excellent shape.

I also used light mineral oil (high purity) with an isopropyl (at least that was what was in the lubricant I used, Nu-Trol 401, old formula). The alcohol and oil has to be shaken very well, because it does not actually mix, but the record will actually be dry and oil free after stored in parchment paper. The oil works incredibly well, but I do not do this with record in good shape, or ones that are actually worth any thing. Just a quick dip of a paint brush and smear it on the record, a very small amount, and mostly only with a spherical stylus. I was told Nu-Trol was originally made for disc cutting, but who knows. I also wouldn't be doing this with fine styli, but it's probably more important to do so.

[wendyhouse]

Hi, I must admit I haven't read every post in this thread but just thought I'd share my story. Not too up on the science/technical side of things but this is what I have done.
I picked up a filthy copy of Bob Dylan's "Pat Garatt and Billy the Kid".
After my normal clean ( at that time) it sounded pretty terrible. As I thought I may have to bin it anyway i thought I'd experiment a bit. Hubby had kindly brought me home a very old record cleaning kit
from a charity shop which included a "groovemaster", one of those things like another tone arm which has a vertical brush attached. What I did was to spray the record liberally with record cleaning fluid ( make my own now) and played it while also using the groovemaster. Sounded Great! After reading comments about once a record had been played wet it always had to played wet, I was astonished to find it still sounded great played dry.
I'm sure there are probably lots of good reasons why I shouldn't do this and I would only do it with make or break records but it has worked really well on quite a few records that seemed absolutely finished. Wouldn't do it with my new deck and stylus just in case.
I was also interested to see when I downloaded instructions for my Dual turntable that it includes settings for wet playing so maybe not such a crazy idea..............

[Ldg]

This post and thread suggests a possible mechanism for how wetting reduces surface noise :

viewtopic.php?f=19&t=41978&start=66

Thought it worth posting a reference on this thread here !

[steve195527]

never tried wet playing any records,but I remember years ago when ever it was discussed in the "hi-fi press" the consensus of opinion seemed to be once you started play records wet you had to continue due to the way the stylus/lubricant(water water/alcohol)affected the muck always present in the grooves,it is liquefied under high pressure of the stylus and after playing sets like cement,the only way to move again is to wet play,something like that was the idea behind once started had to continue theory

[Ldg]

So goes the urban legend, but my experience is that, mostly, condition remains as it was, and sometimes improves. I now have a permanent TT set up for the job, which I use for records with poor surface noise. Where there is generally a very worthwhile improvement. Sometimes that improvement is permanent, but typically not. Very seldom worse. However, personally, I don't use it for records in good condition, it's pointless. But when I have, have not noted degradation, and Flavio81 (AFAIK) still uses it extensively, as per this thread.

Although it's pretty simple, it's a useful thing to know how to do, but I could imagine it not going well just because it's messy, and process matters. Perhaps hence the urband legend?

I don't know why the hifi press didn't take to it, perhaps it's an embarassing leveller beyond their control, outside the comfort zone, who knows ? The line about muck in the grooves and high temperatures/pressures doesn't cut it though, plainly nonsense. And besides, there is an upside ! And now perhaps with an explanation as to why.

It's not as if dry play is exactly noise free sometimes. And, on occasion, there is nothing to lose and much to gain. These days, I use just distilled water and a tiny amount of surfactant, BTW, and still rinse off and leave to dry afterwards. It's worth it though, when it's necessary.

[avole]

Although, it has to be said, if wet playing is really the best way to get the most out of your LPs, it's no wonder CD and now streaming have taken over.

What a hassle!

[Ldg]

Hence why I only go there for vinyl with degraded surface noise.

But I'd also venture that, in a 'play off' between vinyl and CD/streaming, wetting would help level the noise floor issue, and vinyl's better mastering would sweep it !

[steve195527]

So goes the urban legend, but my experience is that, mostly, condition remains as it was, and sometimes improves. I now have a permanent TT set up for the job, which I use for records with poor surface noise. Where there is generally a very worthwhile improvement. Sometimes that improvement is permanent, but typically not. Very seldom worse. However, personally, I don't use it for records in good condition, it's pointless. But when I have, have not noted degradation, and Flavio81 (AFAIK) still uses it extensively, as per this thread.

Although it's pretty simple, it's a useful thing to know how to do, but I could imagine it not going well just because it's messy, and process matters. Perhaps hence the urband legend?

I don't know why the hifi press didn't take to it, perhaps it's an embarassing leveller beyond their control, outside the comfort zone, who knows ? The line about muck in the grooves and high temperatures/pressures doesn't cut it though, plainly nonsense. And besides, there is an upside ! And now perhaps with an explanation as to why.

It's not as if dry play is exactly noise free sometimes. And, on occasion, there is nothing to lose and much to gain. These days, I use just distilled water and a tiny amount of surfactant, BTW, and still rinse off and leave to dry afterwards. It's worth it though, when it's necessary.

Only passing on what I remember from 80's when it was discussed:-I have no opinion of my own as never tried or been inclined to try it,only thing I ever applied to any albums was permostat(think it was called that:-supposed to get rid of static for good)

[ipapb]

OK to all the advantages cited for reading wet but... somebody say that the water can rise to the coils into the cartridge ??
That say, water is a very good lubricant for the diamond.
Hi

[steve195527]

OK to all the advantages cited for reading wet but... somebody say that the water can rise to the coils into the cartridge ??
That say, water is a very good lubricant for the diamond.
Hi

there is water in almost all stylus cleaning fluids so doubt that would be an issue with wet playing or it would also be when cleaning stylus

[Ldg]

Yes, everything gets wet. Well, one has to be prepared for water to get places it was probably never intended to. That's why I set up a seperate, fairly modest, TT and cartridge. Nevertheless, results are excellent, and it makes otherwise unlistenable pressings enjoyable (occasionally miraculously), and adds a lot to my overall rig.

My point in kicking this thread was to cross reference a possible mechanism for how wetting does its stuff, and point to some insight into the whole aspect of surface noise and the mechanisms behind it. Posted a few posts back.

[steve195527]

Yes, everything gets wet. Well, one has to be prepared for water to get places it was probably never intended to. That's why I set up a seperate, fairly modest, TT and cartridge. Nevertheless, results are excellent, and it makes otherwise unlistenable pressings enjoyable (occasionally miraculously), and adds a lot to my overall rig.

My point in kicking this thread was to cross reference a possible mechanism for how wetting does its stuff, and point to some insight into the whole aspect of surface noise and the mechanisms behind it. Posted a few posts back.

I would think any form of lubrication between any 2 surfaces is going to reduce friction and as a result noise,try running an engine without oil:-really noisey before it seizes(and I don't mean from hydraulic tappets rattling!)Do you seem to lose any info from music wet playing,was wondering if the "lubricant" may nullify some fine detail by "filling" the small amplitude signals up