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Official Pro-Ject Fix For Turntable Rumble Now Launched

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Re: Official Pro-Ject Fix For Turntable Rumble Now Launched

Postby ejk » 07 Dec 2011 10:16

moon unit wrote:I installed the grommets today, ended up (after trial and error) with the same configuration as JonP and left the screws out of the equation. At 45rpm I could hear a high pitched hum (I assume 200-240hz) but that was a little past the highest level I listened to, which is pretty loud. Leaving the screws out got rid of that. Also, when I screwed in the grommets my motor had a bit of audible hum at 45rpm (the motor itself) but again, leaving the screws out got rid of that. Not surprising results considering we have the exact same table and nearly the same carts.

The table sounds better if you have the hum/rumble or you don't and the new small diameter round belt is an integral part of that. There is newfound detail in the bass, which is tighter, lower and with more impact than before (which was quite a lot). For now, I am using the standard pulley and belt as the new pulley runs a little too slow and the standard pulley runs a little too fast with the new belt, to my ears at least. It 100% sounds better with the new belt but I can wait until Pro-Ject corrects the 60hz pulley size.

I would honestly equate this kit with a better table and/or a better phono stage. Well worth the fairly cheap price, but if you live in Canada or the US wait until the correctly sized pulley starts to ship. [-o<




So you just used the belt ? and left out the pulley grommets and screws ?
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Re: Official Pro-Ject Fix For Turntable Rumble Now Launched

Postby Laudanum » 07 Dec 2011 15:45

moon unit wrote:Well, I had a few minutes today and decided to install the new 60 Hz pulley and belt. I mainly wanted to confirm that Garven was right about the speed issue so I didn't bother installing the grommets yet.

I timed the platter (with a record playing) as Alec suggested and here are the results:

Stock pulley and belt: 100 revolutions in 2:59.4

New pulley and belt: 100 revolutions in 3:01.2

Looks like Garven was right and you can easily hear that the music is slower than it should be.

I contacted Kurt, the Canadian distributor for Pro-Ject (and great guy BTW) to notify him about this and asked if he would contact Pro-Ject to see when/if this issue will be resolved. When I learn anything of substance I will let you guys know.



Im curious here ... it's 2/10 of a second per minute slow with the stock belt and pulley.
It's 4/10 of a second per minute fast with the new pulley and belt.

But, you can hear when it's slow but not hear when it's fast?
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Re: Official Pro-Ject Fix For Turntable Rumble Now Launched

Postby kalypso » 07 Dec 2011 15:58

Funny, i understand it's the other way round:

2/10 of a second/min fast with the stock belt and pulley,

4/10 of a seccond/min slow with the new pulley and belt,

since it should do 100 rev. in 3:00.00 min.

Do i think wrong?

Regards, kalypso
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Re: Official Pro-Ject Fix For Turntable Rumble Now Launched

Postby Laudanum » 07 Dec 2011 20:15

kalypso wrote:Funny, i understand it's the other way round:

2/10 of a second/min fast with the stock belt and pulley,

4/10 of a seccond/min slow with the new pulley and belt,

since it should do 100 rev. in 3:00.00 min.

Do i think wrong?

Regards, kalypso



No, you're right, It is the other way around. It was too early and I was thinking backwards.
Atleast give me credit for admitting when Im dumb :mrgreen:
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Re: Official Pro-Ject Fix For Turntable Rumble Now Launched

Postby moon unit » 07 Dec 2011 23:02

ejk wrote:So you just used the belt ? and left out the pulley grommets and screws ?


I am only using the grommets, I got better results by not using the screws.

It sounds better with the new belt but then I only have the choice of too fast or too slow, so for now it's the standard pulley and standard belt.



I just want to add that I was listening for noise in the runout grooves on a 12" 45rpm and turning the volume past the loudest level I ever use. I have never had noise problems with my table, my main purpose for buying the kit was for sound improvement.
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Re: Official Pro-Ject Fix For Turntable Rumble Now Launched

Postby b-side » 10 Dec 2011 16:44

I think any timings should be taken with a grain of salt. Recording a frequency test to the digital domain and measuring is bound to be more accurate. Observing a piece of tape on the platter edge spinning at 33 RPM is a coarse measurement sure to have a margin of error of several tenths of a second. I have taken this one step further and tried adding a piece of tape on the plinth so a "tick" sound is heard as they touch each revolution. Even this way, the margin of error between hearing and clicking the time still gives results varying by more than half a second. This is on my Xpression III with SpeedBox.
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Re: Official Pro-Ject Fix For Turntable Rumble Now Launched

Postby moon unit » 10 Dec 2011 23:59

b-side wrote:I think any timings should be taken with a grain of salt. Recording a frequency test to the digital domain and measuring is bound to be more accurate. Observing a piece of tape on the platter edge spinning at 33 RPM is a coarse measurement sure to have a margin of error of several tenths of a second. I have taken this one step further and tried adding a piece of tape on the plinth so a "tick" sound is heard as they touch each revolution. Even this way, the margin of error between hearing and clicking the time still gives results varying by more than half a second. This is on my Xpression III with SpeedBox.


Wrong.

My times were consistent and repeatable using a digital stopwatch, I didn't just time it once each way and claim it was fast or slow. I first used a strobe but wanted to test the speed with a record playing, which is the only time it really matters. If you use the cartridge as a reference point you wil get consistent times, you would have to be ridiculously off to vary by half a second.

Is recording a frequency test to the digital domain and measuring bound to be more accurate? Probably, but regardless, I found it ran slow as well as Garven and Kurt so it is slow.
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Re: Official Pro-Ject Fix For Turntable Rumble Now Launched

Postby Laudanum » 11 Dec 2011 14:09

I agree. You might not be able to measure to a consistent 1/10th of a second but you can definitely repeat a few times and get a consistent enough measurement indicating whether it is running fast or slow with a close enough number for reference. Not an absolutely precise time, that would require more advanced measurements, but definitely enough to confirm fast or slow. Whether you can hear it is another matter that would depend on some factors, none less important than ones particular ears.
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Re: Official Pro-Ject Fix For Turntable Rumble Now Launched

Postby b-side » 13 Dec 2011 21:30

moon unit wrote:Wrong.


Geez, what's with the attitude? Who said anything about a strobe previously?

I was responding to the suggestion to use a piece of tape as described in this thread. I found this method to have a uselessly large margin of error - being off 1 to 2 /10ths of second on the observing and clicking can add up to a range of half second easily. There is a lot of well-intentioned but dubious science or methodology on this (and other audio) sites. I'd hate to see someone think their Turntable is junk because it didn't time right with a lo-fi method.
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Re: Official Pro-Ject Fix For Turntable Rumble Now Launched

Postby moon unit » 14 Dec 2011 03:19

I got an email yesterday from Kurt stating that Pro-Ject confirmed there was a problem with the 60hZ pulleys and they are looking into it to determine if it was a design error or production tolerance issues. He is estimating sometime in January for Pro-ject to fix the issue and ship the new pulleys to him.

If you have already bought a kit you will be supplied with the correct pulley once he receives them.

More props to Kurt, too bad he is not the US distributor...
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Re: Official Pro-Ject Fix For Turntable Rumble Now Launched

Postby Alec124c41 » 14 Dec 2011 05:20

b-side wrote:
moon unit wrote:Wrong.


Geez, what's with the attitude? Who said anything about a strobe previously?

I was responding to the suggestion to use a piece of tape as described in this thread. I found this method to have a uselessly large margin of error - being off 1 to 2 /10ths of second on the observing and clicking can add up to a range of half second easily. There is a lot of well-intentioned but dubious science or methodology on this (and other audio) sites. I'd hate to see someone think their Turntable is junk because it didn't time right with a lo-fi method.


Timing 100 rev with a piece of tape gives a fairly accurate idea of what the average speed of the turntable is. If it is within a second there is not too much problem, but if the discrepancy is more, it will tell you by how much, and in which direction. Knowing you are off by 20% is a pretty sure indicator that you have the wrong pulley, for instance.
Exact? No, but pretty close.
Useless? Not at all.

Cheers,
Alec
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Re: Official Pro-Ject Fix For Turntable Rumble Now Launched

Postby Anti-Hero » 06 Jan 2012 17:33

I have been waiting for so long for an update, WHEN WILL PRO-JECT FIX, THEIR FIX? :lol:
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Re: Official Pro-Ject Fix For Turntable Rumble Now Launched

Postby JonP » 18 Feb 2012 16:09

Hi,

I would like to provide an update regarding this kit which I fitted late last year. Recently I noticed a significant increase in hum at 200 hz and 400 hz. You will see from my previous posts that this was an issue as soon as I originally fitted the kit (and it was also an issue for Moon Unit, who fitted the kit to almost the same turntable / cartridge combination - RPM5 plus Ortofon Rondo - as me). It had never been an issue prior to fitting the kit, however the kit did dramatically reduce noise at other frequencies.

Anyway, I pulled off the platter, only to find that one of the new grommets had actually split. This seemed to have occured because I had to tighten the screws quite a lot in order to reduce the annoying hum at 200 hz and 400 hz (any lesser screw tension just made these humming noises too obtrusive).

After this, I installed the new grommets from the spare kit I purchased, but did not install the screws. As expected, the noise floor was about as perfect as one could reasonably expect - no audible hum at any frequency.

But then I realised that this configuration is mechanically flawed, because the tension of the drive belt pulls the motor at an angle towards the sub-platter, meaning that the pulley and drive belt angle are no longer perfectly aligned (tight screws facilitate this alignment). This caused the belt to "catch" very slightly every so often, producing a very soft clicking noise that you would likely never hear when music is playing. But it does mean the transport is compromised.

So I have found a different solution. I am now running the kit grommets, pulley and belt, but with no transit screws. But crucially, I have added a counterweight to the motor housing bracket on the opposite side to that of the sub-platter (i.e on the edge of the motor bracket nearest the edge of the plinth. The counter weight consists of 2 x 20 gram fishing sinkers, attached to the bracket by means of blu-tack (ugly, but it works perfectly). This counterweighting enables the transit screws to be left off, thereby significantly reducing the hum artifacts at 200 and 400 hz especially, whilst also letting the motor run at the correct angle relative to the sub-platter. The extra 40 grams of weight on the motor bracket also lets the motor bracket "settle" on the grommets - this is important since there is no longer any screws to hold it down.

I've been running this solution for a week now, and I am getting the best sound I have ever gotton from this turntable - even better than when the kit was first installed (and working properly).

Hopefuly this might help others who have come across this issue or would simply prefer to use the kit without having to re-fasten the transit screws (which are always going to re-couple the motor in some way to the chassis - something that I think should be avoided wherever possible).

In coming up with this solution I determined that the absolute correct counterweight needed to be 30 grams sitting directly on top of the upward-facing screw at the edge of the bracket, however I could not find any permanent 30 gram weight that could be fitted that close to the edge. Also, the 30 gram weight right on the edge did not settle the motor onto the grommets as much as I would have liked. Although there are 40 gram weights available, one of them is too large to fit (they will foul the platter). So I went for 2 x 20 gram weights and fitted them between the motor and that edge screw.

As for the ideal pulley height, with this setup it is such that the belt interfaces in height terms exactly at the midpoint of the sub-platter.
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Re: Official Pro-Ject Fix For Turntable Rumble Now Launched

Postby Hawkeye666 » 19 Feb 2012 00:25

I've been following this issue since it first appeared on AppleChap's web site. Since I live in the US I have had to use all the "after market" fixes. Each has given me some relief from the rumble and hum but it was always still audible on the wind down track and at the very beginning of the records.

Then I re-leveled the table with a small bubble level, and gee, guess what? (Rhetorical question alert.) The table was level side to side but nowhere near front to back. Took care of that and now it is as clean as most DD Japanese tables. DOH!
"Anything worth doing is worth over doing. Moderation is for monks." Heinlein
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