The Linn LP12 Gramophone.

[steve195527]

You can hear all the detail is there with my LP12,,but it is presented in a easy going manner..It is a really detailed deck,,if only it was more neutral..

If you plan on sticking with the LP12 you need to save up for a power supply, later bearing or a stiffer sub-chassis. Later/modified decks definitely improved in this area.

Regards,
JaS

Some feel the stiffer sub-chassis/bearing is a retrograde step,I prefer the cirkus sub and the non-cirkus bearing(one fitted just prior to cirkus):-well I did,may fit the cirkus bearing and see if my opinion has changed,have that and the sub-platter to go with it in the loft

[steve195527]

One thing about the very early linn(it was the original rd11 renamed,even made a statement in the hi-fi press to announce this!)is that in my opinion,formed by working at a dealer and having various discussions with them(even Mr T!)is that it wasn't designed with the aim of sounding the "best" it was designed to revolve quietly at the correct speed and suppress feedback and other environmental issues affecting playback,if you like a "supercharged" AR TT(heavier platter/closer tolerances etc):-the fact it did sound better than most others around then was I think a happy accident!
Some of the things on the original deck left loads to be improved:-the feet were a cheap joke,the original pressed sub-chassis was so prone to distortion you were lucky to get a flat one!,the "power supply"(you could call it that I suppose)was another joke:-pretty good industrial type rocker switch though(think it was a RS component!)

[cafe latte]

Which ones? - that's genuine curiosity by the way. I'd pick the LP12 over most turntables I've heard. As for upgrades, well, isn't that what half the hobby is about? As I said before, it's still a great deck despite the hype. I'd still love to buy a good second hand one, but their prices rise quicker than my bank balance.

It was in the best turntable list in 1980 and is rated the best by audio.de and stereo.de. Also the only one from the 1980 list still in production.

The systemdek with acrylic platter sounded better than the Linn of the time as did the first Dunlop systemdek and those brave enough who reviewd it said as much. Technics sp25,10 not to mention the first Townsend Rock of the early 80s all outperformed the Linn IMO
CL

No they didn't only the Rock out of those sounded comparable,different but comparable,surprised you don't include the SP25 in the group that sounded better!:-but the linn isn't perfect by any means but the knockers believe to be the most un-perfect,but if you're a SL1200/1210 fanboy then you're unlikely to like the LP12

I have heard a dunlop and a Linn side by side and believe me the Systemdek is the better TT. They were both current spec of the time and I dont remember who at the time but there was a couple of brave reviewers who said as much too. I did not include the sp25 simply as I have not ever heard one. I am sure you are right though. As a sl1200 Hmm 'fanboy' as you put it.. I also have an idler Commonwealth and the direct comparison highlights what direct drives do so well and also what added colour is too like it or not. I enjoy both of my TTs, but my experience of Linns were that they added a lot more than the systemdek did. Not suprising as the original systemdek was made from some kind of cork like composite (not sure what)and as mentioned earlier covered in a felt like material. This put next to the Linns resonant box it is not IMO hard to see whey they sounded better (less coloured).
Regards
CL

[steve195527]

The systemdek with acrylic platter sounded better than the Linn of the time as did the first Dunlop systemdek and those brave enough who reviewd it said as much. Technics sp25,10 not to mention the first Townsend Rock of the early 80s all outperformed the Linn IMO
CL

No they didn't only the Rock out of those sounded comparable,different but comparable,surprised you don't include the SP25 in the group that sounded better!:-but the linn isn't perfect by any means but the knockers believe to be the most un-perfect,but if you're a SL1200/1210 fanboy then you're unlikely to like the LP12

I have heard a dunlop and a Linn side by side and believe me the Systemdek is the better TT. They were both current spec of the time and I dont remember who at the time but there was a couple of brave reviewers who said as much too. I did not include the sp25 simply as I have not ever heard one. I am sure you are right though. As a sl1200 Hmm 'fanboy' as you put it.. I also have an idler Commonwealth and the direct comparison highlights what direct drives do so well and also what added colour is too like it or not. I enjoy both of my TTs, but my experience of Linns were that they added a lot more than the systemdek did. Not suprising as the original systemdek was made from some kind of cork like composite (not sure what)and as mentioned earlier covered in a felt like material. This put next to the Linns resonant box it is not IMO hard to see whey they sounded better (less coloured).
Regards
CL[/quote]
I do love these opinions that one piece of equipment is adding something/losing something compared to another piece of equipment:-unless you actually compare to the master tapes then that opinion is just that,even doing that you have to take steps to make sure that the other equipment,especially the EQ stage,isn't unduly influencing the result:-The local specialist I worked at sold all the top turntables including the Linn,the Logic DM 101,Transrcriptors/Michell,Oracle,Dunlop,Sp10's and some of the cheaper ones:-Cheaper model Technics( )Rega etc:-the Linn sounded better to me in most systems than all the others bar the Oracle:-which not only sounded amazing but looked great as well,was offerd his display model when he retired/closed down at well below cost but my wife didn't like its looks so turned it down(what an idiot!)

[cafe latte]

Better to you, but correct??
No I have not heard the master tapes to check all is well to make a totally fair comparison. All the same even Linn themselves have in later incarnations adressed much of the resonance issues with the lp12 (at mind numbing cost IMO ). All the same the 14 grand Linn (small car!!) has this 'cleaner' more 'direct drive' sound I am talking about. If the old Linn sound was so close to the master tapes I feel Linn would have stuck with it. IMO the budget Technics does a better job in this respect than an old Linn. Just my opinion.
CL

[avole]

What about the basic Linn, the Majik at £2300? I have an SL1200, but, to be honest, feel the Linn is a better deck judging from a couple of auditions I've had. That was with variants of the AT95E, by the way.

[cafe latte]

What about the basic Linn, the Majik at £2300? I have an SL1200, but, to be honest, feel the Linn is a better deck judging from a couple of auditions I've had. That was with variants of the AT95E, by the way.

I have not heard it to be honest. From what I have read it is a hell of a long way though from the old lp12s I am talking about and has many mods that have progressed in the evolution of the lp12. To be expected as if it sounded like the original it would be way off the pace of the competion now. I would expect it to sound more extended in the bass than a technics and wider too, but most of this will be the Linns box adding to proceedings IMO. The Hifi world review if I recall correct said it still had a basic Linn sound, but overall a more modern presentation, or words to that effect. Better or worse is very subjective IMO, if you listen side by side to two TTs and one sounds bigger in presentation for many on a one off listen it is the best, but you need to evaluate with extended listening how much of the bigger sound is bass distortion, and if the smaller sounding table is the correct one, or not as it may be. All this said listen to a flagship Linn and see how much of the old Linn sound is left... Little...
CL

Edit.. I am not comparing a Technics to a TT I dont know and am only talking one aspect too of the sound that I find an issue
CL

[steve195527]

Better to you, but correct??
No I have not heard the master tapes to check all is well to make a totally fair comparison. All the same even Linn themselves have in later incarnations adressed much of the resonance issues with the lp12 (at mind numbing cost IMO ). All the same the 14 grand Linn (small car!!) has this 'cleaner' more 'direct drive' sound I am talking about. If the old Linn sound was so close to the master tapes I feel Linn would have stuck with it. IMO the budget Technics does a better job in this respect than an old Linn. Just my opinion.
CL

Unlike you I did say sounded better to me,didn't say correct or added/lost something:-listening tests are never empirical unless you are comparing to a known accurate source,your description is of that type of test which I doubt you carried out,unless you have a known baseline you cannot say that one of the sources adds/subtracts something:-you like me are just expressing a preference,all I know is with the same arm/cartridge combo the Linn back then sounded better 99% of the time than the other combos apart from the Oracle,Joe actually stopped selling Linns due to the attitude they had towards dealers,even though it probably cost him money,the Audio Council and Cleartone both sold it and were within 8mls of the shop I worked,so if they wanted one they went there,or Brady's or Chris Brooks:-Seems most of those no longer stock Linn nowadays,often wonder if its for same reason!
For the record I think the Linn is/was over hyped but lots of equipment has been over the years,so not sure it is the "most over-hyped but it is up there!

[cafe latte]

Better to you, but correct??
No I have not heard the master tapes to check all is well to make a totally fair comparison. All the same even Linn themselves have in later incarnations adressed much of the resonance issues with the lp12 (at mind numbing cost IMO ). All the same the 14 grand Linn (small car!!) has this 'cleaner' more 'direct drive' sound I am talking about. If the old Linn sound was so close to the master tapes I feel Linn would have stuck with it. IMO the budget Technics does a better job in this respect than an old Linn. Just my opinion.
CL

Unlike you I did say sounded better to me,didn't say correct or added/lost something:-listening tests are never empirical unless you are comparing to a known accurate source,your description is of that type of test which I doubt you carried out,unless you have a known baseline you cannot say that one of the sources adds/subtracts something:-you like me are just expressing a preference,all I know is with the same arm/cartridge combo the Linn back then sounded better 99% of the time than the other combos apart from the Oracle,Joe actually stopped selling Linns due to the attitude they had towards dealers,even though it probably cost him money,the Audio Council and Cleartone both sold it and were within 8mls of the shop I worked,so if they wanted one they went there,or Brady's or Chris Brooks:-Seems most of those no longer stock Linn nowadays,often wonder if its for same reason!
For the record I think the Linn is/was over hyped but lots of equipment has been over the years,so not sure it is the "most over-hyped but it is up there!

Steve..I may not agree with all you say, but next time I am in the UK I will pm you as I would love to have a beer with you as I am sure will will have some deep beer discussions. You might even buy a Technics at the end of it (If I shout enough beer ). I an not interested unless the pub has real ale as here in Aus the beer is well
Regards
CL

[steve195527]

Better to you, but correct??
No I have not heard the master tapes to check all is well to make a totally fair comparison. All the same even Linn themselves have in later incarnations adressed much of the resonance issues with the lp12 (at mind numbing cost IMO ). All the same the 14 grand Linn (small car!!) has this 'cleaner' more 'direct drive' sound I am talking about. If the old Linn sound was so close to the master tapes I feel Linn would have stuck with it. IMO the budget Technics does a better job in this respect than an old Linn. Just my opinion.
CL

Unlike you I did say sounded better to me,didn't say correct or added/lost something:-listening tests are never empirical unless you are comparing to a known accurate source,your description is of that type of test which I doubt you carried out,unless you have a known baseline you cannot say that one of the sources adds/subtracts something:-you like me are just expressing a preference,all I know is with the same arm/cartridge combo the Linn back then sounded better 99% of the time than the other combos apart from the Oracle,Joe actually stopped selling Linns due to the attitude they had towards dealers,even though it probably cost him money,the Audio Council and Cleartone both sold it and were within 8mls of the shop I worked,so if they wanted one they went there,or Brady's or Chris Brooks:-Seems most of those no longer stock Linn nowadays,often wonder if its for same reason!
For the record I think the Linn is/was over hyped but lots of equipment has been over the years,so not sure it is the "most over-hyped but it is up there!

Steve..I may not agree with all you say, but next time I am in the UK I will pm you as I would love to have a beer with you as I am sure will will have some deep beer discussions. You might even buy a Technics at the end of it (If I shout enough beer ). I an not interested unless the pub has real ale as here in Aus the beer is well
Regards
CL

Pub not far from me sells Timothy Taylor,Theakstons(Old P from a barrel on the bar served out of a jug!)Black Sheep and a few other "real ales"
Can't believe you don't like Fosters or any of the othe Aus p*** type beers lol
Would love a Tecnics:-as long it was the SP10 mk2 or 3! lol

[bubba45]

Well I picked the LP12 up yesterday and it's an old LP12 - c. 1979 to 1981 - from looking at the mods history listed on Wikipedia.

It plays absolutely fine though. Everything is solid on it, no warp to the plinth, topplate unmarked, bearing beautifully clean, no rumble at all etc etc.

So I've decided to keep it. I wasn't sure before I picked it up, but hell I got it for a good price and all it needs is cleaning up and a bit of refurbishing to be a smart old deck. I'll get a Valhalla for it as a good steady power supply does wonders for these kind of decks.

The arm is in perfect working condition but there's a bit of corrosion to the Aluminum headshell and that's all. The counterweight doesn't even sag!!!!! there's no paddles but I can make a couple of DIY from the info on here.

I do love Mission Original arms and it goes well with an LP12. I'm quite a happy little bunny today.

[flavio81]

I guess the Linn Products' founder was/is a bit of a strange guy. Here some wild claims on audio made by him are thoroughly debunked in his presence, thanks to the wonderful "Boston Audio Society".

http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazine/b ... index.html

To his credit, i applaud the fact that he agreed to put his beliefs under tests.

[cafe latte]

Aus beer?? Shudder . No beer should be that bad. IMO it takes a certain skill to make something so vile. Your local sounds amazing! I know most of the good pubs in Manc as I spent a lot of time when at Uni in Chorlton on High lane. Wondering if you are talking about the Swan with two nicks (not in Chorlton).?
Regards
CL

[cafe latte]

I guess the Linn Products' founder was/is a bit of a strange guy. Here some wild claims on audio made by him are thoroughly debunked in his presence, thanks to the wonderful "Boston Audio Society".

http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazine/b ... index.html

To his credit, i applaud the fact that he agreed to put his beliefs under tests.

Interesting.. It reinforces something I have long said that whatever we like to believe it is very very hard for our imperfect brains to remember subtle differences for even a few seconds. I have tried myself switching back and forth with sources and even then with almost no pause it is very hard to pick a change which is why tests that are not blind performed by reviewers are worthless, but this is another topic I supose. This test they performed though does show how are brains are wired very well. It is interesting that listening to the overall sound for differences showed no difference, but then a thought that they may be able to detect a difference listening for an increased hiss (one thing). How many reviewers if put to the same test would fall flat on their faces??
Just saying
CL
Edit...
I think that an unused speaker in a room will join in to the music whether he heard it or not (not the watch though, that is a bit daft!). I cant help feeling the reason he could not detect the speaker in the room as the bass distortion it added would have been masked by the Linn sound
CL