Shure M97xE vs Ortofon 2M Red

[Idgar]

Hi everybody,
i have Pro-Ject RPM 5 with Shure M97xE.
i'm thinking about buying Ortofon 2M Red instead of this one.

the disadvantages with the M97xE:
1. not enough bright (i also have ortofon OM 14 and he's more brighter).
2. Inner groove distortion.
3. i'm hearing some electrical "hum" sound even when the needle is not down.

my questions are:
1. is ortofon 2M Red better than this one and has less inner groove distortion along with bright sound?
2. is ortofon 2M Red will be better with my TT?

would like to hear your opinion.

Thanks,
Idgar

[audiopile]

1.) Hum. This really isn't likely to be caused by the Shure cart (unless your particular cart is defective - not terribly likely IMO). Check that the clips going to the pins on the back of the cartridge are firmly gripping the carts contact pins. If even one of these is loose - you'll get hum.Careful - very easy to break the clips off the wires -so use a foreceps/hemostat or needle nose pliers to check these and maybe tighten them if needed.
2.) Do you know the stylus is still good ? Bought new or used ?
3.) Are you sure the hum is not caused by either your phono pre-amp or lack of grounding wire between TT and pre-amp ? Do you have anything close to or underneath the table that might be giving out a significant electrical field ?
4.) What tracking force are you using? Brush up or down ?
5.) How did you align the cart ? How confident are you that you've got this right ?
6.) Is IG distortion on some or all records ?

[Laudanum]

Just to add. The 2M red is definitely brighter so if that's what you are looking for, then you should prefer the Ortofon just on that alone.

The IGD is not an uncommon complaint with the M97xe. If you are sure that your LP's are not at fault, then either alignment or the the cart, or both are the obvious causes. Personally, I think that QC, or lack thereof, is the main issue with the Shure cart (cantilever/stylus) and IGD. And lack of QC and Shure carts are commonly mentioned together. Anyway, I think QC issues may be more the reason for IGD complaints with the Shure cart than anything else. I have used the M97xe on two different tables with IGD not being an issue. But over the past 10 years I had to go through 4 M97xe's to get the 2 good ones I have now.

Hum was never an issue with any of the 4 M97xe's Ive had, good or bad.

[Paladin]

Let me rephrase your question. You are asking:
‘Are all-around better Ortofon 2M Red cartridges better than a cartridge with problematic midrange, difficult treble, with distortions, and a hum defect?’ Your question has the answer.

You are right; The M97xE do not sound right and have many problems. We read it all the time. Forget the low price and high-tech brush and go for the sound. You’ll quickly forget about the brush and the hype but gain plenty of fun listening to a thousand hours of music. Then you get a new tip and keep on going, happily. Get the Ortofon.

Using bad examples would be a poor way to introduce someone to something exciting and different. We sure are not going to help our rare hobby by selling others on cheap then taking forever to make excuses for them sounding less than stellar. A wrong bargain means we are fooled; we lost. Do not lose others. By buying the wrong stuff then complicate issues with expensive and exotic fixes we give the wrong impressions; analog is a simple and fun hobby. They can be fun and cheap if we do it right. Don’t cut costs in the front end especially if the rest of the systems are better. It would be like putting cheap tires on a good car.

No offense meant: cut your losses. You made a mistake; you have no bargain; you wasted money. I also wasted and learned. Get a better product. To go down the expensive path to put expensive bandages on a dowdy sounding cartridge to make it the “best” when it still has the poor reputation; I am not going to save face. Anyone remember the “Beverly Hillbillies” TV show? Do not fool yourself. In the bigger world, there are much better cartridges for less than $242.

The answer is there. If we quit buying Shure then they either make something that will work or they stop making us cartridges. The problems are solved!

Short straight tonearms like on your Pro-Ject are a different compromise. Regarding your IGD: short arms are very demanding about correct alignments. At the one-third end of the groove you may not have enough cartridge curl or be too far out on the overhang.

Like audiophile said, for the hum, checks to make sure all wire connections are secure.

You really want the Ortofon. I couldn’t say it any clearer.

[audiopile]

Trouble shooting for IG distortion and hum is not at all Shure specific - the questions I asked are simply what we need to know in order to help the OP out of his current difficulties . After 40 plus years as a audio nut (25 of those as a audio dog/salesman/service tech) - I don't view analog as intuitively easy - but also think the basic skills to set up a arm/cart/table are pretty teachable.Experience with and therefore opinions of any combination are only as valid as the quality of the set up.If the OP's setup is on the money and he still finds the M-97xE not his cup of tea - the Ortofon is certainly a option with it's own distinct sound.But if he's got something not quit right now and goes on to incorporate the same problem/mistake into a Ortofon installation - that's how we can loose him (probably forever) from the analog camp.

[flavio81]

The IGD is not an uncommon complaint with the M97xe. If you are sure that your LP's are not at fault, then either alignment or the the cart, or both are the obvious causes.

I have no IGD problems with my N97xE stylus. It works perfectly regarding IGD. But then, i inspect the stylus (with a high power loupe) before buying.

I'd advise the owner to check things again. Vertical tracking force should be TWO (2) grams if the brush is going to be used, 1.5 grams if the brush is not going to be used. I'd advise not using lower tracking forces until the cartridge has broken-in.

Also, the stylus should be COMPLETELY CLEAN if you want zero IGD. Use a high power loupe to inspect it and use a STYLUS CLEANING FLUID to get it completely clean. Like the Audio-Technica stylus cleaning fluid.

And last but not least, records that have been already damaged regarding IGD will most likely still show IGD no matter what.

Now, regarding "Ortofon 2M versus Shure M97xE", i fail to see how this could be an upgrade. Technologically they're about the same, plus i give the edge to Shure because of the viscous stabilizing brush (a GREAT thing). The only difference would be tonality but to be honest it is not worth paying $99 just for getting a different tonality and nothing else of benefit.


So:

1. is ortofon 2M Red better than this one and has less inner groove distortion along with bright sound?
2. is ortofon 2M Red will be better with my TT?

1. No.
2. No, it would be equal.

[Paladin]

You can see that you will not get a straight answer. Rarely does that happen. But hang in there. The internet can be a great resource so check around. There is your experience that was not pleasing and many others have found problems. Ortofon information is out there. With their cartridge I hear a balanced sound and have not got distortion. Ortofon supports turntablists. Actually, they sell to both sides but treat both sides equally. They give us moving-magnet cartridges that fit a wide range of tips. And they give us plenty of moving-coil choices. For a very long time they have given us high-quality, new, and exciting products. I support a company that supports me.

It would be silly to think there are not values at $100 and lower. Many have found plenty including me. An option is to buy the Ortofon and test side by side. Keep the winner then sell the other to someone that appreciates it. You will have to decide because it is your system. And you would have the opportunity to tell us what you experience!

[avole]

The hum is probably a connection or earthing problem, especially as it occurs even when the arm is at rest. Make sure you have connected the earth wires to your phono amp or amplifier if that has the phono stage.

Don't know the sure but think I remember reading it was rolled off slightly in the treble. If you like a more forward option, consider the AT range of cartridges, something like the AT 120E or AT 440mla.

Flavio's comment is a good one: you want an upgrade, not a sideways move.

[Laudanum]

Flavio ... Yes, we said the same thing regarding the M97. Im using the M97xe with stock N97xe stylus on two tables. I have no IGD on either. What I was saying is the Shure isnt know for their QC these days and I had received 2 bad M97xe (actually the styli was the issue) out of 4 and had to return them for replacements. I dont believe there is any problems with the N97xe as long as you get a good one.

As far as the sound goes, they Shure cart does have a rolled off treble sound compared to many of the newer carts. The Ortofon is a brighter sounding cart. A brigher sound seems to be what many, dare I say most, vinyl listeners prefer these days. If I were looking for a brighter sounding cart, the Shure would not be on my list. That said, I like the M97xe. As mentioned, Im using it on two tables, no IGD issues, no problems.

So Flavio, where I guess we dont agree is on the "sound" between the two carts the OP mentioned. If the OP has a good M97xe properly aligned then I agree that there shouldnt be an IGD issue related to the cart itself. But if he is seeking a "brighter" sound, then I dont agree. There arent too many modern budget carts that arent "brighter" than the M97xe. So the 2M red may indeed be well worth it for the OP in the sonic department if that is the sound he prefers. It doesnt make it "better" in the strict sense, I agree. But it may very well make it a better choice for the OP if he prefers the sound. That, afterall, is what is most important.

[freefallrob]

I can't comment on the Shure, but can on the 2M Red.

The 2M Red is not a good tracker, I've had experience of 3 samples and they were all the same regardless of arm/set up.

Buy the 2M Blue and be happy, or the Goldring 1012GX, both are very good!

[flavio81]

A brigher sound seems to be what many, dare I say most, vinyl listeners prefer these days.

Very interesting, i often see Audio-Technica cartridges being underrated here because they being "bright" in general, people talking about the "bright AT house sound" (in a bad sense). I thought people liked a more soft treble sound, at least audiophiles...

I agree with your point, the owner wants a brighter cart. But IMO it is not worth spending $100 just to change flavor of tonality... In my case i would just touch the appropiate bands in the equalizer, but then the holy cult of audiophilia considers equalizers and tone controls "bad".

In any case, i'd recommend the AT-120E then!! The Ortofon 2M is priced too high for what it brings to the table, in my view.

[Laudanum]

I dont have a problem with EQ. But I dont use one. I wonder how many do. For me, it's not an "audiophile" thing. I'm just a music lover. Anyone can be a music lover. Seems to me that, within the budget cart range anyway, there are an awful lot of AT fans. Maybe not on this site but in general. The budget Ortofons are bright to my ears as well for that matter.

[cafe latte]

A brigher sound seems to be what many, dare I say most, vinyl listeners prefer these days.

Very interesting, i often see Audio-Technica cartridges being underrated here because they being "bright" in general, people talking about the "bright AT house sound" (in a bad sense). I thought people liked a more soft treble sound, at least audiophiles...

I agree with your point, the owner wants a brighter cart. But IMO it is not worth spending $100 just to change flavor of tonality... In my case i would just touch the appropiate bands in the equalizer, but then the holy cult of audiophilia considers equalizers and tone controls "bad".

In any case, i'd recommend the AT-120E then!! The Ortofon 2M is priced too high for what it brings to the table, in my view.

I like a good treble, but I like weight and good mids too. IMO the 2M red is bright and a bit thin. Audio Technica are a nice cart, but are sort of similar in that they need to be on the right system to sound good as are a bit on the bright side. It is a long time since I have owned an audio Technica and I have a far better system now so I may feel different on them if I heard them now though.
The Sure is a great cart if you get a good one, it does most things right, but it is a little rolled off which I could live with more than a hard edged treble and most of the roll of can be fixed by loading.
Regards
CL

[Paladin]

Idgar, the OP, choices were narrowed down to two; Shure M97xE and Ortofon 2M red. If the choices were expanded than the Audio Technica AT120E would have got my vote. Only two to dicker between.