Zero 100 Automatic Flaw...

[Ernst3510]

Hi Chan,

Today i was looking for the "rumble" problem.
In my opinion, the platter was ringing like a bell!
It has nothing to do with the platter bearing, that one is turning around smoothly.
Maybe the idler-wheel? You can hear the rumble when you start it up, the idler-wheel goes against the outherside of the platterring, and the ringing started. How faster the platter goes,( i tried it manually with my hand) how harder it is rumbling. So, Ravel's Bolero is off-limits at the moment.
AND: when i put the platter back on, i'm back to "Zero" now! Same problem as earlier: the platter holds on when starting or stopping.
Now i'm out of idea's.
The only thing i did today was taking the tt out of his console, took off the platter and cleaned the idler and the inside of the platter. Put all together and bingo, again the same problem.
I'm a Zero-fan, but now at the moment...

Ernst

[teac4010]

Hi Chan,

Today i was looking for the "rumble" problem.
In my opinion, the platter was ringing like a bell!
It has nothing to do with the platter bearing, that one is turning around smoothly.
Maybe the idler-wheel? You can hear the rumble when you start it up, the idler-wheel goes against the outherside of the platterring, and the ringing started. How faster the platter goes,( i tried it manually with my hand) how harder it is rumbling. So, Ravel's Bolero is off-limits at the moment.
AND: when i put the platter back on, i'm back to "Zero" now! Same problem as earlier: the platter holds on when starting or stopping.
Now i'm out of idea's.
The only thing i did today was taking the tt out of his console, took off the platter and cleaned the idler and the inside of the platter. Put all together and bingo, again the same problem.
I'm a Zero-fan, but now at the moment...

Ernst

Just my humble opinion, if the turntable "rings" when turned by hand it has not been assembled/adjusted properly. If it "rings" when the motor spins the platter it has not been assembled/adjusted properly. If the platter "rings" it is rubbing on something, like the deck or the motor assembly.

Are you certain the platter main bearing has been reassembled properly, if not, the platter to deck spacing will be incorrect ("rubbing/ringing") and the changer mechanism will not contact the main shaft gears properly (binding).

If the motor assembly is not assembled/adjusted properly the idler can run into something it shouldn't depending on the speed selected or all the time.

Just some thoughts. Regards.

[teac4010]

Conclusion: As much bad mouthing as the Zero100 receives in my opinion when compared to the 301 is not warranted. The 301 and Zero are both idler driven machines and so both give nearly the same results. Tube type systems tend to ferret out differences in rumble factor's as they give a much more real sound to all played music but are extremely costly to operate. Draw your own conclusions but the Zero is not bad in comparison.

You are walking on thin ice chan 1.

Regards.

[chan1]

You are walking on thin ice chan 1.

I can only hope and pray that if I mention that I am in my early 60's and am probably loosing some of my hearing that it be enough to prevent a public lynching.

[chan1]

Hi Ernst,

I agree with teac. Sounds like something is getting in the way of the platter spinning correctly and now again preventing the auto from working right.

1. You never answered my question about the record weight. If you use a weight you must need to adjust the idler wheel very high on the spindle to keep the speed correct and it may be to high and hitting the platter.

2. When all is assembled correctly, the bottom edge of the platter comes within a hair's distance of the black frame of the strobe window. Incorrect assembly would mean it is too high or too low. Also, if your platter has a bend or wobble in it, as the platter turns it could rub on the strobe window frame causing your hangup. Maybe your platter has a bend in it?

3. If you have not done so, download the zero100 owner and service manual from the library here in the engine. In the parts blowup, find parts 254,255, and 256 and make sure that you have the bearing and other parts assembled correctly. If assembled correctly, the top of the bearing should have a ring that exactly fits the very end of the platter. It is possible to have this in upside down. Download adobe reader to view the manual.

4. Have you tried the idler wheel from your other zero's yet? Check that the 60Hrz decal is not rubbing again.

Keep your chin up. The remaining problem appears to be simple.

Best regards and get the bedroom ready again

[Ernst3510]

Hi Chan,

The last two weeks were not good for me and my wife. I had her bring to ER at 4.30 am with a bad blood-poisoning, so she's still at the hospital. Hopefully the anti-biotics do their job...

Meanwhile i found back time to get busy again with my Zero 100.
And surprise he's working perfect.

1. The recordweight i use only on warped records. Don't worry, at this moment the tt is working perfectly
It's not neccessary to adjust the idler-wheel on the spindle. Speed is correct and no wow or flutter...

2. Ofcourse he's correctly assembled, i followed every move i made and found no flaws in the assembling.
Platter is perfect and has no bend or wobble in it.

3. I checked the bearing: assembled as on the schematic.

4. Surprise: i changed the idler with an idler from an old SL-95b.
Everything is running smoothly now, start, stop, changer, everything works.
You were right with the idler-wheel.
When i look at the original from the Zero 100, i can not see or feel any flaw on it, but i think you were right on "slipping" at the platter. I even tried a little sandpaper on it to get the slippy side of the wheel off, no result.
Now he's playing with the idler from the 95b. So some parts are compatible.
I noticed that the wheel from the 95b is 3mm larger then the original...
But still working perfect.
Now i got only the problem what cartridge i will use permanently.
I have a Empire 2000/III, a Stanton 681EEE and a Shure V-15 V. But i'm afraid to use the Shure... i read a lot about the weight of the arm and don't want to damage the stylus. Any suggestions about this?

About the "rumble", thats gone... i think the rubber on the old idler was really gone bad and hard...
The glass-platter you see on the pictures is really sound improving. I had it from my old Thorens i was using before i was contaminated with this Zero-Virus...

So, you can see that everything is alright now with the Zero 100.
Even the changer is working perfect!
I had put him also into another wood-cabinet, he looks a little better now IMHO.

Don't really know how to thank you for the big help and advice

A few pictures:













I also uploaded a very rare schematic from a Z2000b i found...

Hope i hear something back from you.

Ernst

[teac4010]

Beautiful Rig. Wishing your wife a speedy recovery. Regards.

[chan1]

Hi Ernst. Hope for your wife a 100% recovery. I too had blood poisoning and tetanus from a dog bite and it took a long time to recover. My own dog too, just a love bite that broke the skin.

Glad to hear all is good with the Zero. You stuck with it and it paid off.
Looks to be a sweet machine now.

Using the 95B idler wheel and that it is slightly bigger is a good fact to know. Sounds like a good possible replacement if one is needed.

Hard for me to see but it appears that you merely added a glass platter to the top of the Garrard platter- correct? Seems like a perfect fit but what are you using over the top of the glass? Anything? Felt?

Using both the glass platter and record weight seems like it would add to much weight and then the record speed would be out of whack? What about that?

Now about cartridges and styli. I have tried many different names in all my machines. Shure, Stanton, Grado, Benz. But the Empire name seems to work best with the Zero for an unknown reason, however, it all is in the relationship between the tonearm and weight of the cartridge. Good Empires require such a small amount of tracking force and that enters into it as well. What is a good Empire? .2 X .7 diamond size or smaller. Forget the rest.
Empire styli and cartridges I have tried in the Zero. All have the original styli to match the cartridge of course.
Empire 2000E/ll and 2000E/lll series.Freq resp.20Hrz-20KHz, 4.5 Mv output
Empire 888VE Freq. resp. 6Hz-32KHz 5 MV output,
Empire 888TE Freq. resp. 8HZ-32KHz 8 MV output
Empire 999VE Freq. resp. 6HZ-35KHz 5 MV output
Empire 1000ZE/X Freq. resp. 4HZ-40KHz 5 MV output
Empire 4000D/lll for quad play but works very well. .1 diamond size

The 4000D/lll is the best sounding but is expensive
The 1000ZE/X is the next best and requires less than 1 gram of stylus weight on the Zero.
The 2000E/lll is the least best sounding but is a perfectly fine unit.Good all around cartridge and stylus. It will track just about any LP even if they are wrapped. Low 1-1/4 gram tonearm weight. Long lasting needle.

You can really hear the difference in Freq resp between the units however. Play the same LP with the different units and that becomes clear.

Get yourself a digital stylus weight meter. You can get the weight down to a 1/10 of a gram. A must have.

It would be helpful to have the original Garrard stylus alignment tool that came with each machine or should have. See if you can find one.

I do not see why you be hesitant about using the Shure V15-V. I do not have one and have not tried it but as long as the stylus gram weight of the tonearm can match the Shure I cant see a problem. Perhaps you need to explain to me further.
Also, maybe the compliance is low on the Shure. I don't know. The compliance on most Empires is very high.

All depends on how much you value your Lp collection. Empires feather weight tracking force numbers rate high with me. The more force necessary, the more wear to the LP and diamond.

No thanks necessary, however, you could find and ship me free a Garrard Zero 100S. LOL. Seriously, they are hard to find here in the US and shipping would be a killer.

Get back to me with the answers to the above questions when you get time.
chan

PS: Just played the Moody Blues- Days of Future Passed on the Zero with the Empire 1000ZE/X. The LP was pressed in Holland and is one of the best pressings of this LP. I used headphones and I am sure that there are sounds that most people have never heard on this LP.

PS2: You can pack away the pillows and blankets as it will not be necessary for me to fly to Europe. I was looking forward to the possibility however.

PS3: I have included a pic of the stylus alignment tool. What it does is align the diamond with the very center of the tonearm pivot point just above it and that is the idea of the Zero tracking although we all know that is impossible but the tool gets as close as Garrard claims it to be. Problem is: unless the owner has the early style cartridge carrier, the carrier will not fit into the tool. The newer style carriers need to have the 2 raised points on the top side of the carrier filed off in order for it to fit the tool but no big problem. One of these just sold on e-bay for big money- more than the whole machine is worth. Like $140.00 or more if I remember. I think a person could make one to work.
http://img279.imagevenue.com/img.php?im ... _477lo.jpg

[DSJR]

I'm concerned about the differing sizes of idler wheel, since that from the SL95B and Zero 100 should be the same, according to scans of the manuals on this site. "New" ones do come up on ebay from time to time and it would be worth getting hold of one I think. Since the SL95B idler cured the problems here, then I wonder if someone "got at" the Z100 original, shaving some down to remove a "flat" or similar?

[Ernst3510]

Hi Chan,

You were right, my wife is still in the hospital. Now it's almost 1 month; indeed a nasty recovery... but it's goin beter every day, doctors here playing save and don't let her go home to early.

Still playing every night with the Zero, sounds good and is a joy to watch it ...

Have change the idler 95 to a "new" one i found in Britain. If you are interested, i can send you the sellers adress.
The wheel is a little smaller than the original Zero wheel, but plays also perfect.
So i do not understand the problem that other people have with the wheel... seems the Zero can use any wheel with a slight difference.



The left one is from the SL95, the right one is the "new" one.




The glass platter i added to the platter is a little sound improving, mostly the lower. And i do not use felt ore something. The vinyl goes straight on the glass.
Bought it in Germany. German people do a lot of "hi-end voodoo" but this times it is an improvment.

Using the both, glass platter AND weight, seems no problem to the Zero, speed is constant, no wow or flutter and speed is immediatly after pushing the automatic-button. I have read on the net about startingtime from over 1 minute!
Even correction of the pulley is not neccessary.

The right cartridge, that's another matter. Still afraid to use the Shure V15V because the high mass of the arm.
At the moment i use the Stanton 681EEE and the Empire 2000/III.
Next week i got a Empire 2500X/EP with a original stylus. i'm curious of this one, because i have no information found on the net of it...



Finding an original stylus-alignment tool from the Zero is almost impossible. I had followed the auction on Ebay and it has ended with 151 $; Nuts!!!
So i tried to adjust it just under the pivot but im not sure of it.
Maybe another way to adjust the cartridge right?

If i can find a Zero100s for you, please let me know if you are interested, the shipping from here is about $60,- thats not really expensive imho. I payd about $100,- to get my Zero from the States to Belgium...
But remember: these are 220v and 50hz players.
At the moment there is a Zero 100s in auction on Ebay Germany, stays at the moment at €71,-.

http://www.ebay.de/itm/150694374392?ssP ... 1423.l2649

Now i'm goin back to visit my wife in the hospital, so i'm back on the computer in a week.
And again, Chan, thanks for all the input.
BTW: the Z2000 has arrived last week, but seems a lot of work. The smart guy who has packed the player, forgot to tighten the transportscrews, so the chassis was dancing in the box due transport, result: some mechanic completly bent.
Next wek i make a few pictures of it and put them here, maybe we can get it back to life...

Regards

Ernst

[Ernst3510]

I'm concerned about the differing sizes of idler wheel, since that from the SL95B and Zero 100 should be the same, according to scans of the manuals on this site. "New" ones do come up on ebay from time to time and it would be worth getting hold of one I think. Since the SL95B idler cured the problems here, then I wonder if someone "got at" the Z100 original, shaving some down to remove a "flat" or similar?

Yep, as you can see from my pictures, they are different in size, but still working both perfectly on my Zero; who says "size matters"?

Regards,
Ernst

[Ernst3510]

Beautiful Rig. Wishing your wife a speedy recovery. Regards.

Thanks Teac!

Regards,
Ernst

[chan1]

Hi ernst. Glad to hear your wife is getting better and the Zero is running smooth.

The Empire 2000E/lll cartridge and stylus is a very good unit but its hard to get original styli to have a backup, unless a person buys both the cartridge and stylus new in the box here and there which is certainly possible. I keep several new in the box as a backup just for piece of mind. Don't know much about the Empire 2500X/EP but I will keep my eyes open for info on it.

Would dearly love a Zero100S and I may take you up on that offer after the first of the year. The German listing for a Zero 100S is sweet and the machine looks to be in fine condition. Would need to tear off all the European electrical hardware to make it work but no problem at all. I will get back to you on that later with a PM.

Good luck and best regards, chan

PS: Curious to see how the Z2000 performs compared to the Zero 100. Probably not a great deal of difference but who knows.

[DSJR]

The size of the idler shouldn't affect speed at all and as long as it's properly retracted when at rest, there'll be no issues I can see.

The fitted smaller one with the cast inner reminds me of the AP76 idler I had, the larger one looks like the standard "Autoslim" idler.. I still don't have the AP76 promised me so cannot take pictures to compare.

With any luck, the Z2000 should be quieter in operation...