The Case For High Vtf (High Tracking Force)

[flavio81]

Yes, but wear might pragmatically be about the same for practical purposes, if in both cases it is very low.

This.

[dlaloum]

When Line Contacts were first introduced, one of the points that kept being made was that higher VTF's were possible without increased wear...

So in theory a high VTF line contact would provide the best of both worlds? (given your theory about vinyl indentation being the differentiator) - and they would make better contact with virgin vinyl.

Bit hard to find the ones that have VTF at or above 3g...

Ortofon SPU RoyalN or RoyalGM - Nude Replicant - VTF up to 3.5g (also several other line contact SPU models)
Stanton 680SL - stereohedron - VTF 2-5g
EMT XSD-15 SFL - super fineline - VTF 2-3g
Audio Note IO range - VdH - VTF max various 3g or 4g
Sansui SV-40X - Shibata VTF 1-3g
Miyajima Shilabe - Shibata - VTF 2.5-3.2g

If you accept elipticals into the selection criteria, you can add quite a lot of DJ/Broadcast cartridges like various Ortofon OM Pro or DJ series, and others...

These are the "wear leaders"

bye for now

David

[flavio81]

(from the excelllent Boston Audio Society)

Food for thought. The EDR9 has a line contact stylus and a very low 0.3mg moving mass. But 6000 plays is a lot. I would guess that a cartridge of the acceptable/ok figure of 1mg moving mass @ 4g VTF would at least allow 1000 plays without too much trouble.

Fine enough for me. Of course, record life depends a lot on the quality of the record compound; these are tests for records of a very high quality compound.

BTW this might dispel the myth that records need to be allowed a sit-down time after each play.

[dlaloum]

Anyone want to loan me a line contact SPU to test....

Have to say I was surprised to find a Stanton 680 that met the criteria...

Tempts me to try to find the 680SL stylus for a try out...

EDIT:

ouch! - found the stylus at TTN - http://www.turntableneedles.com/Needle- ... _1610.html
$170

[Snead]

Flavio, I think the paragraph prior to your BAS quote explained that the Empire test was a test of some friction-reducing coating similar to LAST that Empire was selling at that time.

Thus the "6000 plays" result wouldn't necessarily be valid for untreated records.

I could be very wrong on this but 1000 plays at 4 grams seems like a lot to expect. Even wet, don't you think the friction at that pressure would produce some wear?
Remember Shures stylus wear chart from their great 1978 seminar?

BTW, I've got agree with you about the "let the record rest 24 hours between plays" madness. Who makes up this stuff? [/img]

[Snead]

This what you're seeking, dl? A Vivid Line, $80, but it could be worse - we could be boat or RV ("caravan" I think the word is, in your part of the world) enthusiasts. Those guys need bottomless wallets!

http://www.lpgear.com/product/STAD6800EEES.html

[bauzace50]

Hi,
just a marginal note on the EDR.9 cartridge, which I used for several months. It has a "dynamic resonance damper" for the treble. It is a miniature tuning rod attached to the rear of the cantilever, which inertially tunes out the treble resonance of the cantilever/tip system (instead of using a rubber damper). This is very much like the tuning tube in a speaker of bass-reflex principle.

The EDR.9 was not the only one using this technique, and it was succesful in the technical sense (low resonance and distortion figures were achieved). The Shure V-15-III, and IV used that same principle but did not advertise it.

The idea seemed not to grab the imagination of the public. A good idea with poor market acceptance.

Regards,
bauzace50

[Ldg]

Astonishing that after half a century of development and use, vinyl wear remains a phantom entity that can't readily be demonstrated, or explained. In my book, the best explanation is that it doesn't exist to any practical extent, for well set up quality carts such as are at issue here. But everyone remains paranoid, just in case There's no basis to be afraid. Keep calm and carry on !

I don't buy the line contact=low wear argument, for reasons set out on the stylus profile sticky. Beyond what seems obvious that quality styli have low wear.

There are downsides to carts that use low VTF, not least that generally infers low damping, which is a hazard for lf stability. Nevertheless, fashion and history went that way for a time. But there have been (and still are) very fine examples of carts in high and low VTF camps, and all stops in between.

It's cartridge suspension, rather than the stylus, that determines spec VTF range. For MC carts with a heavier generator, mechanics can dictate suspension parameters and determine VTF to be a little higher. But 3g is nothing really, and not significantly different to (say) 1.5g in pragmatic wear terms. If the cart will tolerate it, trackability generally improves with increasing VTF, as per the OP.

[Snead]

Thanks for the 'liner notes' B50. Since the specialness of the EDR9 was all in the stylus, and no one is reproducing them today, that pretty much relegates it back to ordinary status with a conventional stylus, does it not?

[flavio81]

Flavio, I think the paragraph prior to your BAS quote explained that the Empire test was a test of some friction-reducing coating similar to LAST that Empire was selling at that time.

No, it was not. This was in an article that tested cartridge and turntables. No mention of the )"!/&!"/·!"· LAST product.

[flavio81]

I could be very wrong on this but 1000 plays at 4 grams seems like a lot to expect. Even wet, don't you think the friction at that pressure would produce some wear?

Remember Shures stylus wear chart from their great 1978 seminar?

One thing is stylus life, another thing, groove life.

One thing is actual, absolute wear on the groove, another thing is practical wear.

A .2x.7mil elliptical even 1.25g, WILL leave a mark on the groove when looked at it on the SEM (scanning electron microscope). BUT when the record is tested, there's no frequency change; and the listener does not hear a change.

In other words, the microscope may show marks, but are they audible?

The LencoClean inventor (Loescher) had an AES paper in which records regularly withstood 1200 plays dry "with very little degradation of audio quality", 2000 plays w/LencoClean. Cartridge Shure M91, elliptical stylus at 2.0g, conical at 2.5g.

I'd say record wear has more to do with high stylus tip mass (and thus the potential for mistracking) and bad stylus polish than with VTF. And of course, the quality of the record compound is paramount (there was an article about this on the VE archives.)

If tracking is perfect, one would assume the worn groove will describe a path that is identical to the original path, just a little bit down in height. Thus, the groove would have been worn, but the audio would have been identical.

Consider it!!

[Ldg]

I'd say record wear has more to do with high stylus tip mass (and thus the potential for mistracking) and bad stylus polish than with VTF. And of course, the quality of the record compound is paramount (there was an article about this on the VE archives.)

If tracking is perfect, one would assume the worn groove will describe a path that is identical to the original path, just a little bit down in height. Thus, the groove would have been worn, but the audio would have been identical.

Consider it!!

+1

[flavio81]

Thanks for the 'liner notes' B50. Since the specialness of the EDR9 was all in the stylus, and no one is reproducing them today, that pretty much relegates it back to ordinary status with a conventional stylus, does it not?

Snead, many manufacturers offer today styli that are even better than the one on the EDR9. For example the AT MicroLine, available on the AT-440MLa, AT-150MLx, etc. The Shibatas offered by JICO (and many other manufacturers) are comparable and readily available.

[dlaloum]

This what you're seeking, dl? A Vivid Line, $80, but it could be worse - we could be boat or RV ("caravan" I think the word is, in your part of the world) enthusiasts. Those guys need bottomless wallets!

http://www.lpgear.com/product/STAD6800EEES.html

Nah - the interesting thing about the D6800SL is that it is designed for VTF of 2-5g.
The D6800EEES is designed for VTF of 1 to 1.5g