The Case For High Vtf (High Tracking Force)

[flavio81]

Hi,

Some days ago i bought a second-hand Deutsche Grammophon recording of Holst's "The Planets". When played by my N97xE-stylus equipped Shure, at the typical 1.25g VTF setup (which sounds pretty neat with records in good shape), it sounded noticeably distorted on the loud passages, which clearly indicated this record was damaged by a previous cartridge (mistracking cartridge and/or worn needle.) Needless to say, this despite repeated cleaning.

I was about to throw the record to the trash until i suddenly had an idea. I installed my Audio-Technica AT11 cartridge, equipped with a conical that tracks at 3-5gr tracking force. The theory says that this VTF would indent (or flex) the stylus with more force, thus increasing the contact surface and thus lessening the influence of the damaged areas of the vinyl groove. I set the cartridge at 4g VTF which is supposed to be still within safe limits for a 0.7mil conical.

And yes, it worked!! The record suddendly sounded good again; no bothersome distortion, not even on the inner grooves, if i recall correctly!! Thus i could enjoy the record. I attached a post it note that read "Use 4g VTF" on the record.

I tried other 4 or 5 records that were about to be thrown away because of groove damage, and, while most of them still played bad, one of them also started to sound pretty fine when played with the 4g VTF cartridge. So 2 records were rescued from death!

Moreover, the AT11 cartridge exhibited very good overall sound quality, particularly the bass. The bass was strong, clean and well defined, and i can't help but think that the very low compliance / high VTF combination has helped a lot. Arm was my modded L75 arm. I still haven't examined the resonance freq of the system with the AT11.

Bottom line? I really recommend having a heavy-tracking cartridge in stock! The AT11 (with the 'red' AT stylus), or the Shure SC35C (4-5g VTF) would fit the bill perfectly. Also some good DJ cartridges such as the ATP-2XN. Those three cartridges always get very good reviews sound quality wise.

I wouldn't recommend the M44 series because the cantilever is way too massive compared to the one on the SC35C. Another interesting fact is that the SC35C has 425mH inductance, lower than any other Shure cartridge in production, and an identical inductance figure to the V15-VxMR !!

[Snead]

Flavio, it's good to know that another few platters have been saved from the dumpster!

A technical question - isn't the red AT10 supposed to run at 2-3 grams, typically 2.5? I could be dead wrong but that's what sticks in memory.
If running that low is an option for you, the green .4x.7 elliptical from the 11e runs at a maximum of 2.5 grams and will fit your body.

BTW, I too use your strategy of keeping a heavy-tracking DJ cart around. In my case the weapon of choice is a Stanton 890.

There are lots of ways to extract what's left out of those junker LPs!

[beatcomber]

Could it be that the conical stylus is rolling off the highs, therefore you hear less distortion?

Or perhaps the conical stylus is riding the undamaged section of the groove wall?

[bauzace50]

Hi,

this encourages continued observation! Seems to go counter to prior beliefs but shows good results. I began wondering about this while opening the box for my new Denon DL-103R conical specified for 2.5 grams tracking. So far, VERY good tracking results. You may be on to something, Flavio.

Good luck,
b50

[flavio81]

Could it be that the conical stylus is rolling off the highs, therefore you hear less distortion?

Good question, but the answer is "no". The highs are there. The difference in distortion was night and day; an unlistenable record became very listenable again.

Conical styli can sound very good! An elliptical (or better, a more advanced stylus type) will give more refinement; but this doesn't mean the conicals sound bad; they can sound pretty satisfying.

[Larry I]

I don't think it is necessarily the difference in tracking force that made the difference. More likely, it was a different stylus profile resulting in playing of a different part of the groove--the undamaged part of the groove. Conical styli tend to play at the bottom of the groove while elliptical styli play higher up in the groove.

[Doug G.]

I don't think it is necessarily the difference in tracking force that made the difference. More likely, it was a different stylus profile resulting in playing of a different part of the groove--the undamaged part of the groove. Conical styli tend to play at the bottom of the groove while elliptical styli play higher up in the groove.

This isn't necessarily true. It depends on the dimensions of the styli.

If you have a conical stylus with a contact radius of .7 mil and an elliptical with a front to back radius of .2 mil and a contact radius of .7 mil, the two styli will track at the same height in the groove.

They would necessarily have to.

Doug

[Ldg]

Yes, contact location is the same for sphericals and elipticals having the same major radius. They'll track at the same height. Nothing wrong with sphericals, and compromises can be quite small with a good one, and not affecting tracking at all.

VTF required is a function of the suspension, mostly. Rather than the stylus. Carts needing higher VTF have stiffer suspensions and more damping, which can be a good thing.

Trackability is limited by different mechanisms at different frequencies. If a tracking issue is compliance limited, increasing VTF generally helps. Other mechanisms don't respond so well.

I reckon its quite OK to track at 3-5g for quality carts designed to cope that way. Especially for irregular play. Not much new happens by way of wear mechanisms, which likely tolerate a doubling or so of rate without practical consequences. x2 or x3 a very small number is still a small number. Nothing wrong with a bit of VTF when its well applied !

[nopiano]

Hi,

this encourages continued observation! Seems to go counter to prior beliefs but shows good results. I began wondering about this while opening the box for my new Denon DL-103R conical specified for 2.5 grams tracking. So far, VERY good tracking results. You may be on to something, Flavio.

Yes, and maybe all those studios were right all along, and it wasn't simply about consistent performance. While we were all trying our test discs and mutli-faceted diamonds, those good old Denons just kept playing!

It cannot be coincidence that the DL-103 is still in production and has a big following, can it?

This thread also prompts me to wonder if records ever really wear out, as I remember some demo discs we used to play in the 70s that must have had thousands of plays but still sounded OK. I realise they can get damaged, but does the stylus wear out before the record....?

[flavio81]

This thread also prompts me to wonder if records ever really wear out, as I remember some demo discs we used to play in the 70s that must have had thousands of plays but still sounded OK. I realise they can get damaged, but does the stylus wear out before the record....?

You can easily damage a record. But if you have very good quality gear and properly take care of them, they are eternal for all practical purposes.

[nat]

I have observed the same thing. And I've wondered if the phenomenon might explain the divergence of the Decca cartridge's measurements and its sound -- the old conical Deccas don't measure as if they ought to sound better than practically all other cartridges, but (in my opinion, and many others') they do. Ditto Denon 103s and so on.
I have recently been delighting in the sound of my Franken 301 (a Denon 301 with a cantilever section from some Fisher/Sanyo (I guess) stylus glued on the cantilever stub playing away at 3 grams in a Miracord 10h. Lovely sound, and, oddly, way better than the same cartridge in a Rega 300. I think high mass and high tracking force have some merit that we may have overlooked.

[bauzace50]

Hi,
from memory around 1970 (!) Decca cartridges stated in their cartridge literature that their conical stylus was of the necessary dimensions to avoid LP damage and play at their heavy-ish value (possibly 2.5 grams, but I don't remember the exact value). But we know where the industry went around that time.

There may be something to this idea, after all. My spanking new Denon DL-103R is impressive at its 2.5 gram spec, during its inaugural tour here. Beautiful so far, but too early to notice record wear.
Regards,
b50

[Doug G.]

Let's not fool ourselves about one thing, however.

A cartridge/stylus tracking at 2.5 - 3 grams with the stylus staying in contact with the groove walls will never cause LESS wear than a cartridge/stylus tracking at 1 gram with the stylus staying in contact with the groove walls.

Doug

[Ldg]

Yes, but wear might pragmatically be about the same for practical purposes, if in both cases it is very low.