Denon Dl-103r Any Users Here?

[bauzace50]

@ avole,

of course, I have always reserved some caution in regard to post-market modifications. Even though I have performed various modifications myself. There is the ultimate concern about the lack of measuring equipment, in order to detect the effects of a modification apart from one's idea of the sonic result.

We are all aware of the deceptions one can induce in one's own mind. I've ordered several tip replacements from Expert Stylus with complete success. But the Paratrace on the Sumiko EVO III brought an audible increase in the lower treble, which is not entirely to my liking.

Another modification which did not work out well: ruby cantilever and extreme tip from Sound Smith on my Stanton 500 EE Mk II. This introduced a slighty emphasized color on the treble, which was not to my liking.

Those are two mild misfires among several happy retips. Good average!

But that's enough to introduce concern on the discontrol over such experiments. If they meet with success, we celebrate! But if they fail, the personal budget suffers.

Oh, there is absolutley NO concern over the quality of the handiwork from off-market practicioners. Expert Stylus and Sound Smith perform absolutely exquisite operations! But that does not guarantee the audible results. Those are entirely at the risk of the owner...and it's only fair.

So, I will use the DL-103R "as is" for many weeks, and will compare with several ellipticals in my collection (including the JICO SAS M97xE and the XLM/Astrion). Perhaps my AU-300LC Denon transformer has sufficiently low resolution as to render potential improvements moot We'll see!

Thanks, all,
b50

[avole]

Me, I'm happy with what the manufacturers of cartridges give us. They have resources undreamt of by the amateur, and have twiddled, tweaked, and measured in ways the amateurs cannot.

Hear hear! Those amateurs at Soundsmith, Expert Stylus & Zu need to be exposed. Complete charlatans!

I wasn't referring to re-tipping, but the body mods.I'm having a cartridge retipped by Soundsmith at the moment actually, and it will definitely be an upgrade, since the cartridge had no stylus or cantilever when I bought it

[EdAInWestOC]

@ avole,

of course, I have always reserved some caution in regard to post-market modifications. Even though I have performed various modifications myself. There is the ultimate concern about the lack of measuring equipment, in order to detect the effects of a modification apart from one's idea of the sonic result.

We are all aware of the deceptions one can induce in one's own mind. I've ordered several tip replacements from Expert Stylus with complete success. But the Paratrace on the Sumiko EVO III brought an audible increase in the lower treble, which is not entirely to my liking.

Another modification which did not work out well: ruby cantilever and extreme tip from Sound Smith on my Stanton 500 EE Mk II. This introduced a slighty emphasized color on the treble, which was not to my liking.

Those are two mild misfires among several happy retips. Good average!

But that's enough to introduce concern on the discontrol over such experiments. If they meet with success, we celebrate! But if they fail, the personal budget suffers.

Oh, there is absolutley NO concern over the quality of the handiwork from off-market practicioners. Expert Stylus and Sound Smith perform absolutely exquisite operations! But that does not guarantee the audible results. Those are entirely at the risk of the owner...and it's only fair.

So, I will use the DL-103R "as is" for many weeks, and will compare with several ellipticals in my collection (including the JICO SAS M97xE and the XLM/Astrion). Perhaps my AU-300LC Denon transformer has sufficiently low resolution as to render potential improvements moot We'll see!

Thanks, all,
b50

b50,
You could justifiably call me a heretic in that I prefer the sound of an active headamp with my various 103s. I have used several headamps over the years and my current phono preamp, an Acoustech PH-1P, has a capable headamp built in that I am currently using with the SS retipped DL-103D.

Just like evrything in life there are tradeoffs but my experience with headamps vs stepups has left me preferring the former and pushing the latter into the file of failed experiments.

Headamps do have their limitations and low noise is the primary issue. The strength is the lack of coloration and absolute transparency which is the reason a lot of us got into LOMC cartridges in the first place.

I am sure there are stepups that provide some of the same benefits that a headamp brings but high quality stepups start to get into the upper dollar ranges and as long as I still have children to support (it feels like the rest of my life...sometimes) I will have to avoid those type of devices.

IMO you have to try it both ways to decide what works for you. Cheap stepups leave me somewhat cold and sound flat to my old ears. Modestly priced headamps seem much more capable in my experience but there are notable exceptions (Bob's devices, Cinemag based setpups, K&K devices).

I own a K&K stepup but it can't compare to my phono preamp headamp. That plus the headache of placement to avoid hum pickup leaves me a bit out of patience for that approach.

I'm sure others can say the same for their experience with headamps.

Whatever you do I wish you the best of luck with your 103 experiment. Its a fine cartridge and modestly priced to add to the fun.

Ed

[blakep]

I ran the stock 103R (stock plastic body and conical stylus) for about 18 months before switching to an ebony body, which I used for about 2 years, then a clavellin body, which I used for about a year and then an ebony body with SS retip which I've used for about 16 months.

I much prefer the ebony body to the clavellin (will see how the aluminum works out but I don't think I will be too disappointed) but I'd take the clavellin in a flash over the stock plastic body, which IMO holds the cartridge back substantially.

So I am in the camp believing both the body and stylus mods can add tremendous performance to the cartridge.

That being said, a 103 or 103R retipped with a line contact from SS or paratrace from Expert Stylus (or just about any cartridge that previously had a conical or elliptical stylus for that matter) will be much more sensitive to proper setup with respect to VTA, VTF and azimuth.

It took me months to really get my 103R dialed in following the SS retip, a problem that was compounded (IMO) by some confusion on the SS website with respect to VTF as well as reports from many of pretty low tracking forces with their SS retipped cartridges.

In the end, I ended up tracking the retipped cartridge exactly where the stock conical tracked best for me: at 2.6 grams. If I go lower, I end up with the cartridge offering a hyperdetailed presentation but one that sounds very hi-fi and a bit thin with an undue emphasis on the high frequencies that sounds odd. Very detailed, very "flashy" in the hi-fi sense but not realistic IMO.

[lynnot]

I have not seen anybody try laminating the original body in situ (in its original place)

Hello, in the past (the eighties) I've seen DL-103 versions by L'Audiophile from France.
Versions called Denon DL-103-Pb, hand selected, with a lead-encased housing.
(= lead laminated?)

Rgds, L.

[AudioSoul]

I really don't think that a lot of people that have tried the DL-103R have heard it at is's optimum. Most don't put it in a heavy enough arm. I don't mean just adding headshell weight either. I mean a heavy effective mass tonearm with really good bearings. The wood body modification takes it even futher up the sound ladder. I had one mounted on a Jelco 750D arm with heavy weight and ebony wood body it was the best sounding cart. I had ever heard and I have heard many high end carts. With the Denon there was none of the high end roughnes that some complain about, just sweet detailed high end that I never hear before. And the bass and midrange was astounding. I don't think anyone would want to put a fineline stylus on it it just sounds so good without it. The reason I sold mine is because I was afraid of the 2.5 gm stylus force would ruin my records. Well, there are plenty of people out there using the 103R that aren't ruining their records. I have another one on order from Comet supply. I am not letting this one go.......

[Hanuman]

I've ordered several tip replacements from Expert Stylus with complete success. But the Paratrace on the Sumiko EVO III brought an audible increase in the lower treble, which is not entirely to my liking.

Another modification which did not work out well: ruby cantilever and extreme tip from Sound Smith on my Stanton 500 EE Mk II. This introduced a slighty emphasized color on the treble, which was not to my liking.

@ bauzace50

Yes, the EVO III is already not wanting for treble energy and doesn't need any more.

The stock '103 and the '103R are not worlds apart in character, unsurprisingly. I had the two in unmodified form for a while and the '103R may have been a bit more refined at the top but it's hard to say - could be that I was looking for it to sound that way. Anyway, with that as background, it was the stock '103 that I had modified by Expert Stylus, with the "Full Monty" - Paratrace diamond and sapphire cantilever. The cartridge did get noticeably brighter and I verified this with a spectrum analysis. I'm OK with it because it is certainly sweeter than the stock configuration, which I thought was quite dry (by no means a negative judgement) and forward. To my tastes the modification move the cartridge up a class (or two).

Definitely explore the cartridge for 300-500 hours on the original stylus - that was the advice from Expert, who described the Denon stylus something like: "...yes it's a spherical but it is very well polished."

Enjoy it when it arrives.

[bauzace50]

Gentlemen,

that is a substantial and delectable smorgasbord ! The initial scope was to get a decent cartridge for my neglected stepup (with which I've had no noise problems).

My mind was blank regarding a cartridge, but owners' testimonials led to the DL-103R. Little did I imagine!

Now I may be embarrased by the initial premise: to bring company to a modest transformer!

All of these ideas are valuable and alive Little does the cartridge know.
Thanks,
bauzace50

[avole]

Hanuman, AudioSoul, blakep, out of curiosity, how did you compare the different versions?

[Hanuman]

Hanuman, AudioSoul, blakep, out of curiosity, how did you compare the different versions.

I'm guessing side-by-side, on an exactly similar deck and through the same system?

Or was it remove cartridge, put on new cartridge, configure then sit back and listen?

Or was it send off cartridge to get done, put it on and play when it comes back.

Hint: only the first option is valid for comparison purposes

Unfortunately I don't have duplicate SP10/FR64 rigs available to do the first option. I'm certainly relying on memory to judge the modified '103 against the Expert re-build but there's no doubt about the change. I did have digital captures of the original 103 which served as a useful objective measure. Many of us on this forum, I'm sure, can make a fairly quick call when listening to something unfamiliar as whether it's agreeable or not. Otherwise none of us would ever bother with upgrading.

[avole]

I don't really in agree, in that auditory memory is notoriously bad, and I couldn't pick, for example, my Digitrac 200NE against my 300SE unless I could switch between the both. In a blind testing I'm not sure I could pick between them at all. Yet I hear improvements based on that unreliable memory .

[OneyedK]

Yet I hear improvements based on that unreliable memory .

For some people, you are right, for others, you are wrong.
It depends how your brain works.
Some people have a brain (and memory) that relies on images.
Others have a brain that relies on sound.
It was a surprise to me that a lot of vinyl addicts I know have a visual oriënted brain.
A number of more or less reliable tests can be found all over the internet...
If you combine a left side (creative oriënted) brain dominance with an image oriënted brain in one person, you get a really unreliable audio memory.
On the other side, a person with a more "right sided" brain oriëntation and an audio oriënted memory, can have a really reliable memory for sound.

But you are right, only A-B comparison works for everybody.
So do measurements...

[blakep]

Hanuman, AudioSoul, blakep, out of curiosity, how did you compare the different versions?

Avole: As I said above:

"I ran the stock 103R (stock plastic body and conical stylus) for about 18 months before switching to an ebony body, which I used for about 2 years, then a clavellin body, which I used for about a year and then an ebony body with SS retip which I've used for about 16 months."


I probably listen on average 1 to 1 1/2 hours a day. So about 800-1000 hours with each version of the cartridge. Enough time to become pretty familiar with how each version of the cartridge sounds. Sorry, not an A-B blind comparison for you but the performance differences between the stock and various modified versions are not subtle.

[blakep]

I really don't think that a lot of people that have tried the DL-103R have heard it at is's optimum. Most don't put it in a heavy enough arm. I don't mean just adding headshell weight either. I mean a heavy effective mass tonearm with really good bearings. The wood body modification takes it even futher up the sound ladder. I had one mounted on a Jelco 750D arm with heavy weight and ebony wood body it was the best sounding cart. I had ever heard and I have heard many high end carts. With the Denon there was none of the high end roughnes that some complain about, just sweet detailed high end that I never hear before. And the bass and midrange was astounding. I don't think anyone would want to put a fineline stylus on it it just sounds so good without it. The reason I sold mine is because I was afraid of the 2.5 gm stylus force would ruin my records. Well, there are plenty of people out there using the 103R that aren't ruining their records. I have another one on order from Comet supply. I am not letting this one go.......

Audiosoul: That is exactly the combination I am using. Well, almost. I use an aftermarket headshell with my 750D which weighs just a touch more than the stock Jelco headshell, the heavier counterweight and an additional 4.5 gram stainless headshell weight. This takes effective mass into the 25 gram area, and the extra 4-5 grams did make a considerable difference in performance as opposed to running the 750D without it (about 20 grams effective mass). You are correct: the Denon 103/103R, particularly when rebodied, like lots and lots of mass.

FWIW, the performance gains brought about by the SS line contact retip were of the same magnitude, if not more, than those brought about by the switch to the ebony body (I reviewed the ebony body at the Vinyl Asylum-my review is in the archives) which are substantial.

Hard to believe if you haven't experienced it, but true.

I track at 2.6 and my records are doing just fine.