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Apple Products - Love Or Loathe Them

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Apple Products - Love Or Loathe Them

Postby avole » 15 Aug 2011 10:30

Apple and their products seem to divide people these days. They are hugely successful, and have created a number of iconic products from the Mac through the iphone to the ipad.

However, just as there was once hatred lf all things Microsoft a decade ago particularly in the computer industry, now there ssems a deep-seated resentment of the company and its products.

What has happened? Is Apple the victim of its own success? Is there marketing somehow devaluing the computer industry by foisting on the public products which are not at tne cutting edge of technology? What is it about their brand loyalty that infuriates some?

There may be many reasons why they've become the new marmite, so it would be interesting to find out what people think. The mac has, of course, become a defacto standard in the world of HiFi for its audio streaming capabilities with itunes.

I have two macs, by the way, but only because my work involves all three operating systems and I can run them all seamlessly on the mac.
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Postby 13oots2 » 15 Aug 2011 10:42

It's not the computer that annoys me but Apple users, mention you have a PC and they immediately launch into the "Get a real computer speech." It's almost like fanaticism where they have to convert the unbeliever.

I can do far more with a PC,overclocking etc, it costs less and runs software, games for example, the Mac has yet to dream of.
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Postby KevAmiga » 15 Aug 2011 10:50

I think it goes a little something like this.

Mac's are specialist pieces of kit... if you have a need to run a specific app and run it well, ie Photoshop and you have a big wallet then a Mac is for you.

If you want something that may not quite excel on an individual process, but will however do everything else then a Wintel PC is the box you want.

Or, if you have lots of money, and just want to use facebook and have a machine that looks a million quid, then also, you'd be an Apple fan :D

Simples :)
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Postby Spyes » 15 Aug 2011 11:10

KevAmiga wrote:I think it goes a little something like this.

Mac's are specialist pieces of kit... if you have a need to run a specific app and run it well, ie Photoshop and you have a big wallet then a Mac is for you.

If you want something that may not quite excel on an individual process, but will however do everything else then a Wintel PC is the box you want.

Or, if you have lots of money, and just want to use facebook and have a machine that looks a million quid, then also, you'd be an Apple fan :D

Simples :)

Or you could run Linux and do *whatever the hell you want!*
For example - I had for a while a 6-year-old computer that even when it was new was considered low-end. By rebuilding the kernel and tweaking the OS to my liking, I was able to get it to run smoother than my friend's brand-new Windows machine.

But back to Apple - there are many reasons I despise Apple, none of which have to do with their success. Did you know that your iTouchmyself's update program just happens to be apt-get, a Debian open-source, free tool? Funny, isn't it?
The fact that Apple is basically a Big Brother kinda corporation - "we know what's best for our users", that bothers me. I didn't take out a second mortgage to pay for a computer that limits me.

Apple is great a marketing, but that's basically where it ends. They've got a user base that will basically swallow anything that is thrown at them. If that was their main objective, then they succeeded. But as a user, I don't see this as very productive for myself..
http://www.theonion.com/video/apple-int ... -no,14299/
Yes, it's comedy, and shouldn't be taken too seriously, but there's a lot of truth to it.

I've yet to use an Apple product that has justified the cost and closed-mindedness.
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Postby Spyes » 15 Aug 2011 11:11

13oots2 wrote:It's not the computer that annoys me but Apple users, mention you have a PC and they immediately launch into the "Get a real computer speech." It's almost like fanaticism where they have to convert the unbeliever.

I can do far more with a PC,overclocking etc, it costs less and runs software, games for example, the Mac has yet to dream of.

http://www.thebestpageintheuniverse.net ... =macs_cant
I posted this on the previous thread with the disclaimer: Not to be taken too seriously!!
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Postby avole » 15 Aug 2011 11:20

Spyes, Microsoft are guilty of the same when it comes to using programmes they did not write. They had to buy, for example, their defragging utility which they incorporated in an early version of Windows when they were sued.

Similarly, not all Linux is open source nor free. There were several lawsuits going on between IBM and SUSE (Novell) a few years ago over code over which Novell claimed copyright.

Not clear on one thing, though, since apt-get is free, is there a reason why Apple shouldn't use it?
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Postby 13oots2 » 15 Aug 2011 11:23

Mac's are specialist pieces of kit... if you have a need to run a specific app and run it well, ie Photoshop and you have a big wallet then a Mac is for you.


My PC will run Photoshop as fast as any Mac and the hardware acceleration aspect is a damn site cheaper to implement, same goes for audio acceleration. Try and find me a Mac version 3D program of any real merit, it is a software deadend. As for games, are Mac users still stuck thinking QBert is the ultimate in graphical prowess?
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Postby Spyes » 15 Aug 2011 12:06

avole wrote:Spyes, Microsoft are guilty of the same when it comes to using programmes they did not write. They had to buy, for example, their defragging utility which they incorporated in an early version of Windows when they were sued.

Similarly, not all Linux is open source nor free. There were several lawsuits going on between IBM and SUSE (Novell) a few years ago over code over which Novell claimed copyright.

Not clear on one thing, though, since apt-get is free, is there a reason why Apple shouldn't use it?

I never praised Microsoft, and have just as many complains about them as I do about Apple, and if you want to open an anti-Microsoft discussion I'd be happy to pitch in!

Not all Linux software is free and open source, that's true. The point isn't always to be 'free' and open source, the main point (as I see it) in a Linux distribution is power, options, and more power. As a power-user and ultra-geek, it's nice to know that I can pretty much do anything I desire, without anything blocking me. Hell, it's even encouraged! Whereas with Mac and Win machines, it's more along the lines of, "Here, use this. You don't like it? Ahh well.. too bad!" The fact that Linux promotes learning and experimenting is something that I admire very much. (Well, except for Ubuntu, which is slowly becoming very Windows-ish..........)
So not *everything* on Linux is free, but in my 8+ years of using it I've yet to run into a software that I needed that wasn't free and/or open source, and wasn't as good, if not better, than the expensive, closed-source win/mac softwares.

13oots2 wrote:My PC will run Photoshop as fast as any Mac and the hardware acceleration aspect is a damn site cheaper to implement, same goes for audio acceleration. Try and find me a Mac version 3D program of any real merit, it is a software deadend. As for games, are Mac users still stuck thinking QBert is the ultimate in graphical prowess?

Hey! Diablo 2 runs natively on Macs!
Which is actually cool, D2 was one my *favorite* games growing up.

...and it runs smoothly on Linux via Wine...
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Postby LicoricePizza » 15 Aug 2011 12:43

Apple makes products that people think they need.
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Postby davidsss » 15 Aug 2011 12:45

For me it is both the computers and the users.

I used to work as a designer. I was constantly told how Macs were the only computer to use for design. I happily designed on a PC for years, my files went through image setters fine (while many Mac files didn't - turns out it is the user not the source computer which matters), my PC was fast, cheaper and crashed less (this was back in the days of OS9, I used Win NT, crashed about once every 6 months). Mac users are evangelical about their computers, the rest of us are not, the rest of us just want a machine that does the job.

The Mac platform is closed, they run a monopoly. Don't get me wrong, Macs are fine computers, it's just they run a closed platform. You can buy a PC without an Intel chip and without Windows installed. You can only buy a Mac from Apple and you are forced to also have their operating system. Imagine if the Mac/PC wars had been won by Apple? We would only have one company we could buy computers from. Also, being a closed platform means you are stuck with their parts, you can't buy a graphics card unless Apple decides it will work with their OS, with a PC you can buy any card and the company can make their own drivers, it's an open platform.

It's not like PCs are any harder to use. It's also not like Apple invented anything themselves, you want an OS with a GUI and a mouse the Xerox Alto predates the Mac and Jobs visited Xerox PARC not long before launching the original Mac. I'm not saying that other companies don't copy, it's just that Apple try and give the impression they invented just about everything.

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Postby 13oots2 » 15 Aug 2011 13:12

Hey! Diablo 2 runs natively on Macs!
Which is actually cool, D2 was one my *favorite* games growing up.

...and it runs smoothly on Linux via Wine...


Not exactly cutting edge is it.

Another thing is Apple's outrageous pricing, for a similar specced Apple to my PC would cost about £2400, my PC with 8Gb RAM Quad core, running at 2.4GHz@3.6Ghz( no that's not a typo) and 2mid range graphics cards less than £1000. Most Apple users are unaware that the same hardware is now used on their beloved Mac's to the average PC.

By editing a single line in Adobe Premiere I can get hardware acceleration in video editing and can use Lightwave for all my 3D work. As for video capture professional cards are almost non existent on the Mac. Due to recent advances in software and hardware I am able to almost apply effects in real-time and was able to sell my Matrox capture card and rely on commonly available PC components, would love to see a Mac user be able to do all that.
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Postby flavio81 » 15 Aug 2011 16:01

Continuing the discussion from the other thread:

avole wrote:
Spyes wrote:No, I don't agree that Mac 'lowers your IQ', but other than that one silly post (which obviously was *not* meant to be taken seriously), he's actually brought up several valid points, which you have yet to address. You're still stuck on that silly first post. You're being a hypocrite.
And I don't know what your history with flavio is, so I won't butt in, but it still seems like a really childish way of resolving things on a public forum....
I agree fully, but that's Flavio, what can you do.

Listen, software engineers and developers are jealous of Apple becauae of the company's success


That's a fallacious argument with no basis.

avole wrote:and that they don't like, or fully understand, their business model, it's as simple as that.


In my company we do understand the business model. We do develop software for for the iPod and we're tired of being constantly screwed by the Apple Store, which, as i've mentioned before, can reject an application arbitrarily -just search the internet for many examples. Unlike android phones, iPhone devices can only install applications from the Apple Store, so this means the application that we're charging the customer $20000 or more, cannot be uploaded in schedule, because some stupid app reviewer at Apple Corps wants us to modify the submitted app.

The widely known lack of Flash support is also a painful kick to the developers, since many typical web applications rely on it for animations or sophisticated IU; lack of Flash on the iPhone means having to re-do everything in the Objective-C language using Apple's API -which is entirely unlike Adobe Flash, of course-; which means you need a different engineer to re-do it.

avole wrote:Apple understand their market and produce goods which meet consumer needs. It isn't necessarily the latest or greatest, but it is reliable - never had to reinstall OSX yet.


I never had to reinstall Windows 7 or XP on my machines, so is this a measure of Mac OS X and/or Windows "reliability"? No, it isn't.

avole wrote:Their also decent innovators, and defined two new markets with their iphone and ipad. Geeks criticise them because they are not at the forefront of technology

, but they don't have to be. They fill what was a hole in the market, and brilliantly.

That is Apples strength, and why they're hated by the geeky side of the computer industry.


It's a weak argument; actually Apple products have a strong following from people we could call "Geeks". It's part of the computer-Geek culture to take a fanatical stance (win vs mac, etc).

As i've said before, my problem with Apple has nothing to do with innovation but with their way of charging more money for less, their advertising branch which spread lies about competing products, and putting all kinds of obstacles to developers.

And yes, it is irritating to have to deal with Apple 'fanboys' who look down on your Windows machine as if it was some old coffee maker that breaks down every day, wipes off your files, and needs a 1000 page user manual at your desk. That's being out of touch with reality.
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Postby avole » 15 Aug 2011 17:15

Flavio, could you keep on topic for this thread rather than dragging arguments across from another? Best to let bygones be bygones, methinks.

Cheers,
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Postby JaS » 15 Aug 2011 17:43

I wouldn't say I'm anti-Apple, but I've little interest in Macs as despite the hype they are just too expensive, don't appear to do anything that my Windows machines can't do and won't run the software I want to run :| By choosing Windows XP or 7 as my OS I can build exactly the computer I need and have a solid, fast operating system with which I can run a bewildering array of hardware/software. For my money most of the supposed advantages are outweighed by the negatives, but if a Mac suits your computing needs and you don't mind paying a premium for exclusivity and design then I don't have a problem with that *

As for other Apple products (iPhone/iPad/iPod etc) I'm not really into 'lifestyle' electronics or MP3 playback so I'm as likely to buy one of these as I am an Adidas tracksuit or a pair of Nike trainers. However, if I did want a new phone or tablet I'd probably go for an Android device as the wider choice of hardware and the open nature of the software appeals more to me.

To be honest I think most of the Mac vs PC debate is pure marketing hype started by Apple. Since XP was released Windows has been a solid, reliable choice, only marred by the short lived Vista (everyone has a bad day). I just don't recognise the issues that Windows is supposedly dogged by and tire quickly of Mac users trying to tell me that I'm using an inferior product just because it doesn't have a glowing Apple logo on it :? There is a particular type of Apple user that is no different to the pub bore banging on continuously about the brand of GPS/TV/Car/Phone they've bought and why it's so much better then everyone else's. It's boring, elitist and does Apple's image no favours.

Regards,
JaS

* I would recommend installing Acrobat reader if you want to use this site though as the problems with Preview and PDF compatibility are well documented (so much for 'they just work').
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Postby avole » 15 Aug 2011 18:08

While I think of it, where Apple leads the field is with accessibility. Windows isn't close, and I'm unaware of any Linux product in widespread use.

I realise accessibility isn't a priority for most, but it is an example of how thorough Apple can be at its best.
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