Wanting To Play Old 78S

[Whitneyville]

Cafe, my old song on stylus life is only made worse by the groove speed of 78's. Dirt. Getting 78's safely clean isn't so easy, as any "micro-cracks" can get nasty if you leave a 78 wet for long. I've started using (since it's become available again) P&G Pure Castile Soap and a boar's-bristle shaving brush (quite stiff). I'm using my Dual at 33 1/3 with my Pickering XV-15/78 3mil conical, and adjusting the speed with Audacity and EQ in "post". The "half speed mastering" cuts lots of surface noise, and the stylus doesn't ricochet around the groove as badly. I'm using a "hard cut" at 10KHz, on electrical cuts from earlier than WWII, as I can't find anything but noise much above 7Khz on excellent 78's. Major-major speed variations existed until 1935 at least. A half-way decent 12-band equalizer can undo the RIAA and correct for 99% of non-acoustic equalizations. Acoustics, it's every man for himself, just PLEASE don't play them back on acoustic gear. If you're gonna do that, just save time and run a lawnmower over them. Either way will grind them up...the mower is just faster.

[Coffee Phil]

Hi Cafe Latte,

The number which I seem to remember is 1000 hours for diamond styli and 200 hours for saphire. Since 78s turn more than twice the speed and shellac is harder than vinyl I would guess that less than 500 hours for diamond would be prudent. I have read that early shellac actually had abrasive powder mixed in to shape the early steel needles. Later shellac became less noisy so I'm guessing the abrasive stuff was gone however during WW2 shellac was in short supply so some of those records can be brutal. The shortages of WW2 also brought about vinyl. I have to believe that the vinyl 78s are more gentle on your stylus than shellac.

I think a stylus microscope is a good idea for all of your styli. I'm looking to get a USB microscope for this very thing.

Phil

Thanks Phil that has answered a few questions Do you know how long the stylus for 78 play last?
Congrats on your pre amp it looks really nice and is something to consider if it helps me get the best out of my 78s. I have a few preamp ideas and am not jumping into anything too quickly having got a box of unused projects that are gathering dust, but thanks for your kind offer I may well take you up on it when I make up my mind
Regards
CL

[Coffee Phil]

Hi Whitneyville,

Thanks for the shellac cleaning info. I'll have to get some of the P&G product. Do you use it on vinyl as well?

I agree with most of what you said except I think you are a bit harsh on acoustic machines. The 78 RPM hobby has several branches. Some of us like to try to extract the best sound we can from the recordings from the past while there are those who like to restore those old machines and actually hear them. I think if the machines are in good shape and you don't try to push the life of the needle too far playing the older shellac records on them is fine.
I would not play vinyl 78s or even shellac records from the end of the 78 era on them.

Phil

Cafe, my old song on stylus life is only made worse by the groove speed of 78's. Dirt. Getting 78's safely clean isn't so easy, as any "micro-cracks" can get nasty if you leave a 78 wet for long. I've started using (since it's become available again) P&G Pure Castile Soap and a boar's-bristle shaving brush (quite stiff). I'm using my Dual at 33 1/3 with my Pickering XV-15/78 3mil conical, and adjusting the speed with Audacity and EQ in "post". The "half speed mastering" cuts lots of surface noise, and the stylus doesn't ricochet around the groove as badly. I'm using a "hard cut" at 10KHz, on electrical cuts from earlier than WWII, as I can't find anything but noise much above 7Khz on excellent 78's. Major-major speed variations existed until 1935 at least. A half-way decent 12-band equalizer can undo the RIAA and correct for 99% of non-acoustic equalizations. Acoustics, it's every man for himself, just PLEASE don't play them back on acoustic gear. If you're gonna do that, just save time and run a lawnmower over them. Either way will grind them up...the mower is just faster.

[Whitneyville]

Phil, the things that make castile soap good on shellac make it not so good on vinyl. It isn't an aggressive cleaner, it leaves behind a residue (that acts as a groove lubricant) and it's not a great organic co-solvent which prevents it from attacking shellac or PVA, but prevents it from cleaning vinyl well, which we can literally use lye or sulfuric acid on. Information: What many people think are "vinyl" WWII and post WWII 78's are really polyvinylacetate or white glue thermoset records, also known colloquially as "buttermilk" records (as "buttermilk" buttons on shirts which scorched brown and smelled like burned buttermilk if touched with a hot iron). PVA records are often brightly colored but came in black too. They flex to a point, then they shatter like shellac, but early vinyl (PVC) records weren't as flexible either. This causes alot of confusion. Far more 78's were made from PVA than PVC. Early EP's, ELP's (45 RPM 12" discs) and 33 1/3 and the weird-Alice 16 2/3 RPM's can be PVA or PVC. Hint: The U.S. Army Signal/Service Corps 16 2/3 RPM "Voice Mail" records are all PVA, whether they be the tiny WWII 4.5" discs or the Korean War 5" to 5.5" discs. I have seen both on feeBay recently for $500+++. I'm trying to "nail down" what the Navy and Air Force did with their's. Excuse the topic drift.

[cafe latte]

Thanks everyone, and sorry Joe I missed your post re the stylus and only spotted it now Really looking forward to spinning my first 78 In the mean time I will keep shopping and get a few more so I can do a proper test
Regards
CL

[Coffee Phil]

Hi Whitneyville,

Topic drift is great if it imparts this much information. I had never heard of PVA. Now I'll be tempted to touch the outside edge of some of my vinyl looking 78s with a soldering iron to see if they smell like buttermik.

Up untill now I have been using my Discwasher brush with their fluid on these records. So far no ill effects, but should I not do this.

Were you a chem or material science major? I was a EE major and I thought those courses were difficult and a PITA. More and more I am now wishing I payed more attention in them.

Thanks for the good info.

Phil

Phil, the things that make castile soap good on shellac make it not so good on vinyl. It isn't an aggressive cleaner, it leaves behind a residue (that acts as a groove lubricant) and it's not a great organic co-solvent which prevents it from attacking shellac or PVA, but prevents it from cleaning vinyl well, which we can literally use lye or sulfuric acid on. Information: What many people think are "vinyl" WWII and post WWII 78's are really polyvinylacetate or white glue thermoset records, also known colloquially as "buttermilk" records (as "buttermilk" buttons on shirts which scorched brown and smelled like burned buttermilk if touched with a hot iron). PVA records are often brightly colored but came in black too. They flex to a point, then they shatter like shellac, but early vinyl (PVC) records weren't as flexible either. This causes alot of confusion. Far more 78's were made from PVA than PVC. Early EP's, ELP's (45 RPM 12" discs) and 33 1/3 and the weird-Alice 16 2/3 RPM's can be PVA or PVC. Hint: The U.S. Army Signal/Service Corps 16 2/3 RPM "Voice Mail" records are all PVA, whether they be the tiny WWII 4.5" discs or the Korean War 5" to 5.5" discs. I have seen both on feeBay recently for $500+++. I'm trying to "nail down" what the Navy and Air Force did with their's. Excuse the topic drift.