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Boboli, Benz Ace, Denon Dl304 (And An Absent Oc9) Do The Biz

the thin end of the wedge

Boboli, Benz Ace, Denon Dl304 (And An Absent Oc9) Do The Biz

Postby satanfriendly » 25 Jun 2011 03:55

A couple of recent used purchases (Benz and DL304) from some recent clear out funds and a wet day (no motorbike :cry: ) has lent the opportunity to try a few cartridges out. Not really a big shoot out or anything as each has their own strengths and ability. And weaknesses of course. These are just a few observations and personal opinions.

Each is roughly in the same sort of price bracket.

The BN, Benz and OC9 (by memory as no longer mine) listened on the RD110/774 and the Denon on the Logic/GH220 simply because it is too fussy to set up and it has taken me too long to tweak it in to where it stands at the moment.

Tracks used:

David Bowie – Ziggy Stardust
ABC – Lexicon of Love
Martha and the Muffins – Echo Beach
Eric Clapton – 461 Ocean Boulevard
U2 – Joshua Tree
Duran Duran – Rio (yes really!)
Dvorak – New World Symphony
Grieg – Peer Gynt

Blue Note Boboli - micro eliptical - Cu 8 – 1.4gm – 100 ohms

An old favourite of mine first as I have lived with this baby for a number of years now and seem to have a feeling for 'how it should sound'. Not easy to set up as a bulking great lump, low compliance and very fussy with reference to VTA. Non colour coded pins which doesn’t make life easier.

For me the simplest way to describe the sonics are powerful yet neutral. Energetic transients which lead to a fast powerful blend. Offers a very spacious musical view with depth, width and imaging, instruments being placed very nicely within the overall picture. Inoffensive in the treble register and usually displaying a detailed mid-range, but may become a little muddled on more complex arrangements with vocals tending to drift in to being a little ‘shouty’. Involving and a great insight in to musical texture.
Very suitable to my musical taste, but handles orchestral with equal gusto, poise and finesse.

In my opinion a bit of class leader at its price level and hence why it has remained my own reference for some time now.

Image

Denon DL304 – Special elliptical – Cu 14 – 1.25gm – Settled for 100 ohms as preference

Very new to me as my first ever experience with a Denon. Bought second-hand with a claimed less than 50 hours which I have every reason to believe as it is getting better with each play and I am sure it is still not fully bedded in. A very nicely made cartridge and easy in its own rights to set up (it is the arm which is a pain). You have to look twice to realise there really is a cantilever and stylus, so fine they are.

I wasn’t quite sure what to expect and I am still trying to figure out exactly what the sound is. Bauzace mentioned it sat firmly in position as to which side of the fence it is on, but I am not quite sure I could agree to the same. May be it is because I am new to the Denon sound, I don’t know as yet. The verdict is still out. I need more time with it.

Certainly very musical in that it captures the tempo of the music very finely indeed and keeps the rhythmic side in check. The treble is probably the best I have heard for a long time, very detailed, and very delicate. The bass wonderfully portrayed without being bullish which I have to admit the Blue Note can be at times; being very strong in this register. It is the mid-range though which has me rather at ends. I am not quite convinced the same quality of detail is being extracted in say comparison to the OC9 (I have mentally ended up tagging the OC9 and the 304 in the same bracket for some reason). There was a very realistic heavy strumming of the acoustic guitar on Bowie’s ‘Starman’, but it seems to be at the sacrifice of other instruments which got rather ‘lost’ in the the big picture. The same of Duran’s ‘Rio’ where the keyboard to the title track just seems to wander off.

Don’t get me wrong I love the Denon, but I am still coming to terms with the Denon signature. Musical without a doubt, but it is holding back from letting me get ‘under the skin’ of the music. I still need to work on this baby much like it took me time to find the best settings for the Blue Note and I am still not convinced it is fully worked in as yet. It is like the cartridge is saying ‘look I have better yet to come’. I shall persevere. People haven’t said it is outstanding because it isn’t and I have faith in their beliefs.

Image

Benz ACE S/Medium – Gygar stylus – Cu 14 – 1.6gm – 220 ohms

Why a medium? Because it was a damn fine price.

Undecided whether it is best used on the MC setting or the MM and throwing the volume up instead. Appears to have slightly more guts when used on MC. Or am I just fooling myself because the gain is higher? Mmmmm food for thought together with the use of some ears.

Beautifully constructed and an almost naked cartridge in appearance. Bit of a swine to set up as not one straight edge to line up with my Mayware protractor. Being clear doesn’t help the cause either. Sounds stupid, but I needed a small torch to help line up, and the same with azimuth.

Now this is getting there. A claimed 200 hours and in all honesty it sounds pretty ‘run in’. Probably closer to the Boboli than any of the others in terms of presentation, except it has amazing depth and instrument positioning. A strong taught bass (possibly a tad exaggerated) with great transient qualities leading to a powerful musical stage. I thought at first the treble was being ‘drowned out’, but on the Joshua Tree the cymbals were so so delicate yet strongly outlined. There is a slight ‘dryness’ to the sound at times, but if anything is worthy of note is the way it surgically cuts between good and crap recordings. I feel as though half my record collection has just become redundant.

Again early days and again I need to tweak, but if this can be improved upon (and I am sure better has yet to be extracted as I think a bit more VTF required due to it being used. Any hints anyone?) then I am about to bowled over with a cartridge for the first time in a long time. And I am told the Glider is another step up again. Breath-taking!

Image

Image

Audio Technica OC9 MLII – Micro line – Cu 9 – 1.6gm – 100 ohms

Recently sold on to another VE member who by all means is extracting a lot of pleasure from the OC9. Solidly made cartridge with a fine boron cantilever and stylus which somehow give the impression of ‘I am about to fall to pieces if you even look at me’, but thankfully never has. Bit fiddly with the ‘nut and bolt’ securing in comparison to the threaded bodies of the Benz and BN.

Bauzace described the OC9 as being ‘you either love it or loathe it’ and it is not difficult to see why. In a bright sounding system it could quite easily crucify the sound. In a neutral balanced system it excels. For a long time I considered it to have a narrow staging which I still stick by, but this is easily made up for having a strong mid-range full of character and a nice space around the vocals and individual instruments. Said by many to have a vigorous treble quality, I personally never recall this being the case. Very precise and with strength in the higher register, but never fatiguing or overly bright. Reasonably tight and tuneful in the bass and nothing to cause concern as it gets it just about ‘bang on correct’. For me there is a definite narrowing in the width compared to say the Blue Note and switching from one to the other was like bringing the walls in a touch closer with the AT.

As Bauzeace said it sits I fine balance on the fence and it can fall either way. It is probably the best description and a definite ‘hear before you purchase’ item. Works excellently on a Mission774 which is why it lived on one for so long.

A very missed item, but at least it left lingering memories in much the same way as a Dynavector Ruby did many years ago.

Image

I was thinking of may be passing the Blue Note on to make space for something new in the future for the Pink Triangle project, but as I was saying to a VE member earlier, all this playing around with cartridges actually made me realise the PT is sadly missed until it is resurrected in the near future. Complete with the Boboli as I know I would curse myself if I ever let it go.

I would be chuffed if any DL304 or Benz ACE owners could pass on a few hints as to settings etc which can push their already wonderful boundaries a little further.

In passing each and every one of these cartridges are absolutely superb trackers and stick to the grooves as if they were glued in to the record.

Overall I would recommend any of these cartridges to anyone in the market for a MC at around these price levels. The Blue Note for its overall balance (but not the easiest cartridge to accommodate), the 304 with its musicality (but at this moment at the expense of the mid-range detail), the OC9 for its richly presented mid-range (needs careful system matching though) and the Benz for the rich texture and musical insight, but do be aware it is critical of bad recordings.

Sorry to have prattled on chaps
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Postby nabil » 25 Jun 2011 08:37

Great post! Thank you. I currently own an Audio Technica OC9 MLii and truly enjoy it's virtues-I think you described its sound very accurately; well done. As the Denon continues to breaks in I would love further evaluations between it and the OC9. I am strongly considering replacing the OC9 with either a DL304 or an AT33EV. My understanding is that the 33 series sounds similar to, but more refined and fuller bodied than the OC9 series. Anyway thank you for the review.
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Postby BigE » 25 Jun 2011 09:54

Is it just me, or does anyone else find those VTF's too low?

I have a Benz ACE (pre S) in an SMEIIIs. It needs to track at 2.00 grams. There is a damping trough with the big paddle in it. No way should that be tracking at 1.6 with no damping.

ld's calculator will help to nail down the minimum tracking weights and added mass those cartridges need to sound their best.
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Postby satanfriendly » 25 Jun 2011 12:36

Is it just me, or does anyone else find those VTF's too low?


In the case of the Benz and the Denon probably so, and I am thankful you have mentioned your tracking for the Benz. I used present settings as they were the lower end of the recommendations and thought take it from there.

I actually use LD's calculator, but only as a guide initially for 'are they or they not suitable for the arms?'.

I guess I posted here to try gain some 'you need to try this' from others as I am not entirely convinced I am 'quite there yet'.

The other two cartridges I have lived with for quite some years now and happy with how they perform.

Except I don't live with one of them anymore, but it was a very mutual divorce.
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Postby bastlnut » 25 Jun 2011 14:11

hallo,

you guys need to get the Benz ACEs on heavier tonearms.
at least 11g arms to do the cartridge justice.
the old ACE i have is tracking at 2g, the new cartridges have lower VTF and have not tried them yet.
the AO 774 has a higher eff. mass but does it have more than 10g?

the ld loafer is just a starting point and will not be accurate in your individual set up, it is a good guide to what may be possible.
for that matter, the tonearm resonance spread sheet on this site is just as good but does not look so sexy.

regards,
bas
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Postby Ldg » 25 Jun 2011 14:38

Great post, SF. What loafer permits is to evaluate damping match, which the most excellent forum calculator doesn't. And loafer examines response that extends into the lf audio spectrum. It's a guide for getting in the zone.
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Postby satanfriendly » 25 Jun 2011 14:39

Hi there Bas

For me the resonance calculator is the 'final word' tool for me and states 'should work or stay away', but I use LD's effective mass calculator to get the info to enter the information required for resonance. The two kind of work hand-in-hand.

For information the Hadcock is 11.5gm (stainless and dampened tube) and the Mission around 12.5gm after having it sleeved out by Audioorigami for use with these kind of typical value cartridges. Both have heavier counterweights which help push the mass up. The Hadcock was calculated to have a similar value from an outsider who doesn't post on here, but certainly knows his stuff.

Admitted the Blue Note sounded better on the Notts Analogue arm on the PT, but then at 12gm it is not quite the most universal of cartridges the manufacturers claim. Plus I still think the PT had a large say in the end result.

I will try a few different VTF's tonight and see what brings. The Boboli sits boxed in storage for future use.

It's a guide for getting in the zone.


Exactly. It helped me get to the point where it is either worth it or not. After this it's all a case of fiddling around.
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Postby Spinnr » 25 Jun 2011 15:34

Satan.

Many, many thanks for the time it took you to post. May all the members here wish you more wet weekends to spend indoors and share with us.

To me, your post is what this site is all about. Not about whining arguments, or stuck philosophies, but fabulous reviews with great photography. Wish we had more from people like you who have talent for the job. I'd also like to see more projects in progress posts, again from people who have talent.

I'd love to contribute to these but don't have the talent. But, I do love the hobby and the joy music brings.

Vinyl forever.
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Postby satanfriendly » 26 Jun 2011 03:52

Waheeeeee. The Denon DL304 is now a new blessing.

Firstly do not trust these cheap digital scales as advertised on E-Bay. As it turned out when compared to my old trusty Shure the cartridge was actually tracking at 2.2gm, nearly double the recommended. Duh!

At that it depended upon where on the digital scale the stylus was placed as it fluctuated from 2.0 to 2.8 and the 2.2 in the middle. Absolute garbage and now destined for a place of the same name.

Set at 1.3gm using the Shure and now at 220ohms instead of 100 as previous and it is like I have just had half a swamp emptied from my ears.

B52's original original album and a bloody great difference. I now have instruments finding their own space in the musical space and very little of the muddling I mentioned before. The drums on 52 girls are hitting with impact now instead of sounding like a wet fart and the treble right on song. Still lacks the bottom end power of the OC9 and probably trying to be a little polite, but now delivering with finesse and more refinement. Depth is now an event as against to just a word.

I am now happy to have this little baby in the collection whereas I had reservations prior.

This is a revalation from the other night. This is so similar to the OC9 but with a more defined bass.

Now to play with the Benz and probably have my brain removed without surgical procedures.

Thanks for the remarks Spinnr, but I do not see a future in being a reviewer as one; I have zero control of English and two; I go to sea so I can get away from everyone and do less than I do at home.

To be honest I put these words to forum as I have always thought this particular price range to be quite hottly contested.

By the time I have scribbled all this waffle the B52's are nearly at their end and all I can say is f*@k is this good!

Just moved on to 'Making Movies' Dire Straits and the mid is so so improved and it is hanging on to instruments like I do my wallet.
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Postby mrsipowitz » 26 Jun 2011 04:03

Great thread! As a new Benz ACE owner (the red, low output version) I find your mini-review to be spot on! The air around instruments is amazing, transients are realistic and breathtaking and the timbre of instruments, particularly percussion is outstanding. For $NZ1,000 this little cartridge has added a new dimension to my listening experience (I upgraded from a Rega Exact). And I haven't listened to a single CD since installing the Benz! 8)
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Analog Instruments 12" Tonearm / Benz Micro ACE SL MC
Trichord 'Dino'
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Postby satanfriendly » 26 Jun 2011 05:26

This has been a night of 'happenings' as against to the the night of 'it should be happening' of yesterday.

Checked the Benz after discovering the pitfalls of nasty cheap scales and on the Shure I lost interest after 3.0gm and still wouldn't balance. Now at 1.7gm on the button according to the mechanical scales of many past years and Jeeeeeeez!

The B&W 802's and Roksan amplifiers are finally earning their money. I actually thought about selling the 802's as to me they never did 'quiet', they do now. Quiet, loud, whatever you want the Benz has achieved to give a total controlled musical picture. Seperation, imaging, power and a delicacy like I have not heard for a long time. The whole shebang.

Stunning is all I can say.

This has been a pleasurable evening discovering two new talents in the house after coaxing them a little and having a feeling something was wrong.

It will stay this way until the next time I am at home and have yet another system shuffle.

If anyone was to ask which of this lot I actually prefer, it really is very simple. All of them. I never wanted a favourite I just wanted the best I could extract in their own rights.

Thanks to all those who gave their initial thoughts and opinions while I dithered over the purchases. At the end of the day the Benz and the 304 both for less than the price of a new Benz alone and I have every reason for being a bunny tonight and a very happy one at that.
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Postby BigE » 26 Jun 2011 07:32

In my setup, the Benz ACE is on an SME IIIs arm, with 4.35 gm headshell weight, big white paddle in the damping through at 2.00 gm.

In this configuration the effective mass is at least 9.35 grams, but more likely around 10.5.

The damping ratio is around 0.15 using loafer. So, adding the trough is necessary.

I can't tell you the sonic difference without the through, as it has been in place for a denon 103D. That is similar to the Denon 304 series in compliance. Without the trough, I felt this cartridge needed a LOT of mass to sound right. In fact, 2.1 grams was optimal. With the trough, it is possible to go to 1.9. Tracking less than that gives audible signs of mistracking, although not catestrophic.... just a pronounced upper midrange. No doubt this is in the resonant frequency of the arm as well.

Adding the damping trough lowers that resonant peak. It will not stop the resonance, but it will lower it's impact.

Certain interconnects that have a recessed midrange will make for huge gains as well if this sort of behaviour is evident. eg. Kimber Hero.

But, by far, the best solution is some sort of damping. Even teflon tape wrapped around the arm should help. Or a ring of blu-tack at the arm's midpoint.

I strongly encourage those that have these ligther arms with lower compliance cartridges to experiment with damping. The methods are simple, and the results are worth it. At least try to run the cartridge at the maximum recommended tracking weight. This will also help.
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Postby 13oots2 » 26 Jun 2011 10:08

Sorry I haven't chimed in soon but had a bout of serious insomnia( something I live with from time to time) and have been far too tired to concentrate on a post.

I was the very fortunate person to buy SF's OC9 and can see why he misses it. The cartridge would normally be far outside my price range and I was thinking of buying Ortofon Vivo Blue when the opportunity presented itself.

The cartridge sounds fantastic on my Pink Triangle with Mission 774 original tonearm. The treble and mid-range are incredibly detailed without being harsh on my system. I can say with certainty that the bass is also very good but doesn't dominate.

I have been far too much in awe of the performance to experiment so far and am tracking at 1.5g and using the largest damping paddle on the Mission.

Maybe one day I can aspire to owning the wonderful cartridges that SF is now enjoying.
If I find myself caught between two evils I choose the one I haven't tried yet.
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Postby steve195527 » 26 Jun 2011 13:46

satanfriendly wrote:Waheeeeee. The Denon DL304 is now a new blessing.

Firstly do not trust these cheap digital scales as advertised on E-Bay. As it turned out when compared to my old trusty Shure the cartridge was actually tracking at 2.2gm, nearly double the recommended. Duh!

At that it depended upon where on the digital scale the stylus was placed as it fluctuated from 2.0 to 2.8 and the 2.2 in the middle. Absolute garbage and now destined for a place of the same name.

Set at 1.3gm using the Shure and now at 220ohms instead of 100 as previous and it is like I have just had half a swamp emptied from my ears.

B52's original original album and a bloody great difference. I now have instruments finding their own space in the musical space and very little of the muddling I mentioned before. The drums on 52 girls are hitting with impact now instead of sounding like a wet fart and the treble right on song. Still lacks the bottom end power of the OC9 and probably trying to be a little polite, but now delivering with finesse and more refinement. Depth is now an event as against to just a word.

I am now happy to have this little baby in the collection whereas I had reservations prior.

This is a revalation from the other night. This is so similar to the OC9 but with a more defined bass.

Now to play with the Benz and probably have my brain removed without surgical procedures.

Thanks for the remarks Spinnr, but I do not see a future in being a reviewer as one; I have zero control of English and two; I go to sea so I can get away from everyone and do less than I do at home.

To be honest I put these words to forum as I have always thought this particular price range to be quite hottly contested.

By the time I have scribbled all this waffle the B52's are nearly at their end and all I can say is f*@k is this good!

Just moved on to 'Making Movies' Dire Straits and the mid is so so improved and it is hanging on to instruments like I do my wallet.

Hi Chris
Its not the "cheap digital scales" that is the problem but the type of scales:-the magnet in the 304 is so powerful it interferes with the mechanism/electronics that they use:-stick something like a lolly stick,I use a small piece of a PCB,on to the scales with double sided tape/blue tack to move the stylus away from the main gubbins,zero it using the facility built in(well mine has that) then set tracking weight,won't be 100% accurate but will still be probably more accurate then the old shure ones
You can see the effect some moving coils have on some electronic scales by slowly lowering the stylus near to one without even contacting it
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