Michael Fremer Slaps Down The Technics Sl-1200

[shhh...listen]

Thanks Mosin, for your input. In your blog you wrote:

The Technics AM flutter plot rises remarkably above 200hz, while the other tables do not. The reason why this is so potentially remarkable is because the speed control loop is supposed to operate somewhere around this frequency. However, it does not show up on the Technics FM plot, which is a strike against this being control-related.

With respect to the AM flutter around 200hz, how do you think it would manifest itself on music i.e. is it audible?

I'm trying to get a handle on what the naysayers hear.

It sounds to me as if Michael Fremer is just repeating some of the negative comments he has read or heard about.

[Rap]

...by the way,who is Michael Fremer????!!!!!??

The enemy...

mmmm.i doubt he's qualified to cover that position!
A tt reviewer who states that a dd drive is always haunting the right speed and that a fully analog motor like the sl1200 is causing jitter is obviously missing even the most elementary knowlege about tt's.
Also,about cogging...you can search in every science book and will find that it exists in every motor spinning.it's impossible to cure it completely and is present in every kind of turntable. Is like a magnetic field:you can isolate it but is impossible to interrupt it.Of course the better the tt motor,the less cogging.If you look carefully (and i mean carefully) at the strobe of a 150$ dd dj table like gemini's and the like,you'll see the dots moving a little onward and then a little backward...a weavy movement:that is cogging. Look at the strobe of a sl1200 tt: rock solid speed stability. Is possible to hear wov or flutters invisible at the strobe? Nope.Reason to worry: zero.
Cogging is still present,in every tt being belt,direct or idler drive.

Cogging is worse the slower the motor is spinning, on a high-speed motor the motors inertia tends to filter out the cogging. An idler motor typically spins at 1800rpm compared to a direct drives motor spinning at 33 1/3 rpm. This is why people talk about cogging with a direct drive. Whether it is audible or not is another matter.

I believe the " dots moving a little onward and then a little backward." is called hunting.

Regards.

[covalongacurta]

i would like to know what Michael Fremer has to say about the kenwood L07 ! For him a system that costs less than 350000 $ is c*ap unless some magazine pays him to say the opposite ! Poor guy that has to listen to stuff under 500 $ to survive ! Hard life some people have on this planet !

[shhh...listen]

Thanks flavio81 for your input. I see in your profile no listing for an SL-1200. Where you converted to the Lenco 75 due to your experience? Perhaps you can provide some specifics on the difference you heard.

[mattlynch]

hi all,
a quick word on the term jitter, i think that term is used loosely by virtue of the current testing methods, IE ;there aren't many wow and flutter measuring devices around any more, apparently ! so the test gear in current use can only display such effects as wow and flutter as jitter measurement,i may have picked this up wrongly though,,

i only mention this as i have just finished reading Noel Keywoods ever interesting column in hi fi world where he tells us that he has just obtained one such device, namely a 'Rank Kalee wow and flutter meter', and is busy measuring TT's with some interesting results apparently ,so hopefully he will communicate some of his findings in up and coming issues, fingers crossed,
all the best,
Matt

[avole]

Matt, you're right, it is used very loosely in the analogue world.

Jitter refers to the clocking within digital data packets, which is used to rebuild images from typically streaming, as it doesn't require acknowledgement of reception but instead builds on the order of the clock time within each data packet. If these packets don't arrive in timely fashion, that is called jitter.

Why it has crossed over is anybody's guess.

[mattlynch]

Matt, you're right, it is used very loosely in the analogue world.

.

Why it has crossed over is anybody's guess.

hi Avole, thanks for the clear explination of jitter, nice.
as i mentioned it is most likely because of a shortage of the W+F meters , as the industry moved across to digital ,demand for such devices diminished, (as i understand it from Noel Keywoods's article)
i think all the testers were left with little option but to try and make use of equipment and software used for digital device measurement not through choice but through necessity ,
i will be keeping an eye on hi fi world just to see if the manufacturers figures actually mate up with real world testing,
all the best,
matt

[alfonso]

...by the way,who is Michael Fremer????!!!!!??

The enemy...

mmmm.i doubt he's qualified to cover that position!
A tt reviewer who states that a dd drive is always haunting the right speed and that a fully analog motor like the sl1200 is causing jitter is obviously missing even the most elementary knowlege about tt's.
Also,about cogging...you can search in every science book and will find that it exists in every motor spinning.it's impossible to cure it completely and is present in every kind of turntable. Is like a magnetic field:you can isolate it but is impossible to interrupt it.Of course the better the tt motor,the less cogging.If you look carefully (and i mean carefully) at the strobe of a 150$ dd dj table like gemini's and the like,you'll see the dots moving a little onward and then a little backward...a weavy movement:that is cogging. Look at the strobe of a sl1200 tt: rock solid speed stability. Is possible to hear wov or flutters invisible at the strobe? Nope.Reason to worry: zero.
Cogging is still present,in every tt being belt,direct or idler drive.

Cogging is worse the slower the motor is spinning, on a high-speed motor the motors inertia tends to filter out the cogging. An idler motor typically spins at 1800rpm compared to a direct drives motor spinning at 33 1/3 rpm. This is why people talk about cogging with a direct drive. Whether it is audible or not is another matter.

I believe the " dots moving a little onward and then a little backward." is called hunting.

Regards.

Ok,thanks for your input.
But slower motor speed has always been regarded as a solution that could lead to a superior speed accuracy and stability (way lower wow & flutter).
So a faster motor (belt/idler drive) has less cogging but more wow & flutter.
A slower motor (direct drive) has more cogging and less wow and flutter.
There isn't a solution that can cure everything for what i can see.
But,while cogging is invisble at the strobe on good machines,the same thing can't be said regarding wow & flutter wich are visible by looking at the strobe. So more audible.
So why people like Framer talk bad about dd?!
The only answer that came in mind is that he's doing that baselessly...or to cherish his "audiophile" status against popular machines used by common people

[mosin]

Hi guys,

No comment from me, but you may find this interesting. Read the February 28, 2009 post.


http://audiamorous.blogspot.com/

Excellent blog, is it yours?

I suspected the flutter problems of the SL1200 from the first time i compared my SL against an idler drive TT.

http://audiamorous.blogspot.com/2009/02 ... utter.html

No, it isn't my blog. I found it to be interesting, however. It seems to illustrate what I hear.

[covalongacurta]

does anybody believe in an ex stand up comedian like michael fermen ? Ultra high-end audio is like haute-couture ( high-end fashion ) nobody uses those clothes anyway but the models on the passerelle ! Those clothes are made of the same tissues we use every day ... Ultra High-end audio gear is made based on the same laws of the physics as a battery radio ! Esoteric audio doesn't exist because if it is esoteric then it isn't real and if it isn't real or if it doesn't sound real it is snake-oil ! I've listen to high-end gear and i've never been impressed : the most of high end loudspeakers have an incredible lack of bass and i will never understand why. A so called high-end system never made me mistake the sounds of the real world by the sound coming from the speakers ! Don't audiophiles look for realism ? I respect the funny jokes of mr. Michael fermen and the jokes of those who make audio gear for bats ! But they will never get a cent from me ! If mr.fermen says that a pair of speakers is good be careful because that can be one of his jokes ! I'm not a technics fan either . I just have a different taste !

[Blue Angel]

does anybody believe in an ex stand up comedian like michael fermen ? Ultra high-end audio is like haute-couture ( high-end fashion ) nobody uses those clothes anyway but the models on the passerelle ! Those clothes are made of the same tissues we use every day ... Ultra High-end audio gear is made based on the same laws of the physics as a battery radio ! Esoteric audio doesn't exist because if it is esoteric then it isn't real and if it isn't real or if it doesn't sound real it is snake-oil ! I've listen to high-end gear and i've never been impressed : the most of high end loudspeakers have an incredible lack of bass and i will never understand why. A so called high-end system never made me mistake the sounds of the real world by the sound coming from the speakers ! Don't audiophiles look for realism ? I respect the funny jokes of mr. Michael fermen and the jokes of those who make audio gear for bats ! But they will never get a cent from me ! If mr.fermen says that a pair of speakers is good be careful because that can be one of his jokes ! I'm not a technics fan either . I just have a different taste !

VERY different, if I read your posts

The gentleman you refer to is called Michael Fremer, not "fermen".

ba

[covalongacurta]

does anybody believe in an ex stand up comedian like michael fermen ? Ultra high-end audio is like haute-couture ( high-end fashion ) nobody uses those clothes anyway but the models on the passerelle ! Those clothes are made of the same tissues we use every day ... Ultra High-end audio gear is made based on the same laws of the physics as a battery radio ! Esoteric audio doesn't exist because if it is esoteric then it isn't real and if it isn't real or if it doesn't sound real it is snake-oil ! I've listen to high-end gear and i've never been impressed : the most of high end loudspeakers have an incredible lack of bass and i will never understand why. A so called high-end system never made me mistake the sounds of the real world by the sound coming from the speakers ! Don't audiophiles look for realism ? I respect the funny jokes of mr. Michael fermen and the jokes of those who make audio gear for bats ! But they will never get a cent from me ! If mr.fermen says that a pair of speakers is good be careful because that can be one of his jokes ! I'm not a technics fan either . I just have a different taste !

VERY different, if I read your posts

The gentleman you refer to is called Michael Fremer, not "fermen".

ba

that's it . The gentleman i was talking about is Mr. Michael Fremer. Thanks for correcting me

[Rap]

Ah yes, the old, ´everything that is more expensive than what I use is a waste of money and sounds terrible´ argument.

[scho2684]

does anybody believe in an ex stand up comedian like michael fermen ? Ultra high-end audio is like haute-couture ( high-end fashion ) nobody uses those clothes anyway but the models on the passerelle ! Those clothes are made of the same tissues we use every day ... Ultra High-end audio gear is made based on the same laws of the physics as a battery radio ! Esoteric audio doesn't exist because if it is esoteric then it isn't real and if it isn't real or if it doesn't sound real it is snake-oil ! I've listen to high-end gear and i've never been impressed : the most of high end loudspeakers have an incredible lack of bass and i will never understand why. A so called high-end system never made me mistake the sounds of the real world by the sound coming from the speakers ! Don't audiophiles look for realism ? I respect the funny jokes of mr. Michael fermen and the jokes of those who make audio gear for bats ! But they will never get a cent from me ! If mr.fermen says that a pair of speakers is good be careful because that can be one of his jokes ! I'm not a technics fan either . I just have a different taste !

What about non-ultra highend, does that sound better than the average al included into one 5000Watts stereo set to you?
Why are you into vinyl anyway?

You must be joking, you are Michael Fremer (and in that case you are joking) or you have a hearing problem (lack of bass???)
Michael Fremer is not my guidance either by the way, but my ears are...

Marco