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comparison of higher end turntables

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Postby duficity » 11 Jan 2011 14:54

The vacuum on the Sota is only heard for about 3 seconds on startup, to seal the record, then reduces to maintain the vacuum. After it reduces, I simply cannot hear it without putting my ear up to the remote vacuum box. Plus, I dont understand the idea that a vacuum would drive dirt into the grooves. It would be the exact opposite, pulling the dirt out. And as to the pressure of the vacuum causing the record to grind down on dirt on the platter, the pressure is so much less than a clamp, and is spread evenly across the surface, not loaded at various points across the record like a clamp.

If maintaining contract between the platter and the record is a good thing, then nothing else works as well as a vacuum platter, and no vacuum platter works as well as the Sota, at least in my experience. It really is automatic and adds no compexity to the record playing experience.

Now, some may not feel that contact between the record and platter is a good thing. In that case, a vacuum would be the wrong way to go. Except it really does take out most mild warps much better than a clamp, and even larger warps if you run your fingernail along the edge of the record at startup. Once it gets that initial seal, it holds it throughout the side.

I do agree with you in theory that a small constant drag is probably better for maintaining a constant speed so long as the motor has enough torque to overcome that drag at all times. That would be better than a platter that fluctuates between being pulled and coasting. Sort of like trying to pedal circles on a road bicycle. Almost impossible to do, but is the holy grail of any professional bicycle racer for fluid movement.

Any thoughts on the difference between a Metacryl platter and a Delrin platter? it seems that Delrin is used in many areas to reduce resonance, and assuming no resonance is a good thing, Delrin might be a better material for platte construction.

I guess some of the earlier ugliness got removed by the moderator.
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Postby avole » 11 Jan 2011 18:37

Well, one tried to help fellow forum members (sigh!)

Just buy an LP12. One of the two turntables that lets the music through. The other is, of course, the AR turntable. :idea:

P.S No tongue-in-cheek, simply the two best turntables I've heard. Numerous tweaks and options for both.
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Postby duficity » 11 Jan 2011 20:36

Avole,

I have listened to the Linn, Ittok combo and it holds no interest for me. It was ok, but nothing better than any number of other combinations I have owned or heard. Same goes for the AR, which I actually think is nicer than the Linn. Besides, I have a philosophical aversion to a system which requires a multitude of factory sponsored tweaks to get it to perform as its supposed to, after being told by the manufacturer that it is the be all and end all of turntables. Not that I am adverse to a manufacturer improving their product, but Linn just seems to be correcting deficiencies. But some like that kind of sound, so they have a product that meets their desires.
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Postby ameryt » 13 Jan 2011 22:53

avole wrote:Well, one tried to help fellow forum members (sigh!)

Just buy an LP12. One of the two turntables that lets the music through. The other is, of course, the AR turntable. :idea:

P.S No tongue-in-cheek, simply the two best turntables I've heard. Numerous tweaks and options for both.


The LP12 is the 3rd best turntable in my house and about the 9th to 11th best turntable I've ever heard.

It's a good turntable.
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Postby duficity » 14 Jan 2011 01:51

and what, pray tell, are the other two. And why are they better?
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Postby blue-starfish » 14 Jan 2011 11:00

The SME 30 (not the SMEs 10 and 20) have the same rhythmic ability of the LP12, but with more neutrality, more bass weight, with quiet background. And the SME 30 does not need constant tuning or upgrades.

It's like a LP12 on steroids, minus the tuning headaches.
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Postby ameryt » 14 Jan 2011 19:51

duficity wrote:and what, pray tell, are the other two. And why are they better?


EMT 930. This sounds like a grown-up LP12. An LP12 with more authority. Bass is the biggest area of improvement. Take a track like the 1st one on the Beatles' Abbey Road and the bass guitar on the LP12 sounds more like a rubber band being twanged compared to the EMT 930 that makes it sound more like an amplified steel bass guitar string. The LP12 sounds like it has a somewhat woolly bass compared to the 930. Listening via big sealed box speakers helps to hear the difference. Percussive midrange transients are better on the 930 too.

EMT 950. This has similar strengths to the 930 with the 950 having a more detailed and focused midrange but with a slightly less propulsive bass. Some or a lot of this difference might be down to the different built-in phono amplification in each of the EMT's with them having a different tonal balance. On piano music the 950 is better at sounding like an actual in-tune piano being played and less like the electro-mechanical reproduction of a piano on the LP12.


There are no sonic areas where my LP12 (Cirkus, Lingo, Ittok LVIII, Troika) is better than than my EMT 930 or 950.


I've also heard the following turntables sounding very good with the right arm, cartridge and phono amps: Garrard 301, 401, Technics SP10, Notingham Dais.
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Postby duficity » 15 Jan 2011 01:31

there certainly seems to be a split in opinion, somewhat along the lines of which side of the pond is weighing in. Linn, Mitchell, Nottingham, SME from the old country, VPI, Oracle Basis from the colonies. Is there a great price difference between what we pay for a VPI Classic, for instance, and what you have to pay over there. It seems Linn prices over here are substantially higher.
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Postby bastlnut » 17 Jan 2011 14:33

hallo,

transportation always drives up the cost of any product from another country.
design is also a bit oriented towards the design and listening practices of the country it was designed in.
buying power is also a large factor, so all out design experiments are few and far between.

i would choose a turntable based on the tonearms i want to use.
i just installed a system in a friends house and have to already work on an upgrade for the system!
going to have to tweak the boxes too!
being that he has so many mono records, he needs a 2 tonearm deck.
so, either i build one from parts, or he needs to be patient till a used one comes up for sale, or pay big money for something new.

this is always the crux, upgrade or replace something and then the next wish crystalizes adn the new round of spending money!
when you finally get the next improved and better turntable, what do you think will be the new weak link in the chain?

regards,
bas
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Postby duficity » 17 Jan 2011 16:16

Bas,
Why arent there more stand alone tonearm mounts. Is it just because you cant get them close enough to the platter to align them properly, or is there some other reason a tonearm needs to be attached to the plinth or platter structure. I have seen some seperate systems, where the motor, platter and tonearm are seperated,and it would seem to make some sense and be especially useful for running multiple arms. I suppose there would have to be some method of fixing the arm in place, relative to the platter, but a heavy enough plinth wouldnt move anyway once you set it up.

Any thoughts.

As for future upgrades, there is always the opportunity to upgrade speakers. My best right now are PSB Stratus Golds in one room and NHT Classic 3s with NHT Classic Subwoofer in another room. My home theatre system uses Kef C80s.

I consider my best phono preamp to be the PS Audio GCPH which has plenty of flexibility, balanced outputs and the best part, a remote control which does volume, mono and phase. My amplifiers are Classe C100 and Nobis Contigore for tubes and a Dussun V6i integrated . Preamp is a Classe 30. I like the Contigore, but it may need more power to drive the Golds. right now its driving the NHTs straight from the GCPH. A pure analog system.

Financially, I would probably not go beyond $5000 for a speaker system, new or used. I think after that level, much of the improvement is a matter of preference more than actual improvement. Seems a lot can be done for 5k. What are your thoughts.

PS. What are you putting together for your friend?
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Postby avole » 17 Jan 2011 17:22

Bastinut, what are your thoughts on the Garrard 301? I found a pristine one in a local shop - it would need a new arm.
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Postby flavio81 » 17 Jan 2011 18:20

avole wrote:Bastinut, what are your thoughts on the Garrard 301? I found a pristine one in a local shop - it would need a new arm.


GRAB IT!! Just learn all the details on its manteinance and calibration so you won't have problems. And put it in a right plinth.
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Postby avole » 17 Jan 2011 20:07

flavio81 wrote:
avole wrote:Bastinut, what are your thoughts on the Garrard 301? I found a pristine one in a local shop - it would need a new arm.


GRAB IT!! Just learn all the details on its manteinance and calibration so you won't have problems. And put it in a right plinth.
Well, that was my initial feeling, but I'm just a bit bothered that the whole Garrard thing might be a bit of internet hype. Are they really that good?

The guy who's selling it has had it for 50 years, and it looks perfect.
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Postby flavio81 » 17 Jan 2011 20:33

avole wrote:
flavio81 wrote:
avole wrote:Bastinut, what are your thoughts on the Garrard 301? I found a pristine one in a local shop - it would need a new arm.


GRAB IT!! Just learn all the details on its manteinance and calibration so you won't have problems. And put it in a right plinth.
Well, that was my initial feeling, but I'm just a bit bothered that the whole Garrard thing might be a bit of internet hype. Are they really that good?


I don't think there's any hype in praising the classic idler drive tables made by Thorens, EMT, Garrard and Lenco.
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