comparison of higher end turntables

[Alec124c41]

I'm obsessed!

I love to hear the music as clearly as possible, and tinkering with the equipment has its own satisfaction.

Cheers,
Alec

[avole]

And I suppose appreciation of a beautifully made violin or guitar or piano is a pointless hobby also and we can only listen to the sound it makes, that is, if the sound is musical, and not the variations in tone produced by different materials and manufacturing methods.

But I guess you are entitled to your opinion, no matter how absurd and illogical. Why not start your own thread with that.

Problem is, you've lost sight of what the violin is used for.

To put it more simply, what interests you more, the quality of the canvas, or the painting?

At the moment, for you, it seems to be the canvas, and I find that a pity.
As I said before, sell your expensive objects of art, get a humble Pro-ject, and use it to remind yourself of what Hi Fi is all about

Here endeth the lesson.

[Alec124c41]

And I suppose appreciation of a beautifully made violin or guitar or piano is a pointless hobby also and we can only listen to the sound it makes, that is, if the sound is musical, and not the variations in tone produced by different materials and manufacturing methods.

But I guess you are entitled to your opinion, no matter how absurd and illogical. Why not start your own thread with that.

Problem is, you've lost sight of what the violin is used for.

To put it more simply, what interests you more, the quality of the canvas, or the painting?

At the moment, for you, it seems to be the canvas, and I find that a pity.
As I said before, sell your expensive objects of art, get a humble Pro-ject, and use it to remind yourself of what Hi Fi is all about

Here endeth the lesson.

And that is why the violinists in the Berlin Philharmonic all use modern Chinese-made instruments...

Cheers,
Alec

[duficity]

avole,
why does asking a question in a hardware related forum automatically suggest I am not interested in the music itself. I am capable of walking and chewing gum at the same time. For me, the music gets better, the better the equipment I play it on, and I have found new meaning and emotion in many old classics that I thought I knew well after I heard them played on better equipment.

If we accept that no system equals the sound of live music, and live music is the best way to feel and understand the intent of the musician, doesnt it follow that the closer we get to live music sound, the closer we get to the intent of the musician. How can this possibly be hard to understand.

Plus, there is the simple appreciation of a craftsman expressing his craft through his product. One doesnt appreciate a Rolex because it tells time better than a Timex. It just looks and feels better and may in fact work better. I could get as much or more satisfaction watching a painter paint as I could just looking at his final product, just to witness and feel the artistry involved. There is so much more to most things than just one, absolute truth.

[bastlnut]

hallo,

i have another something to add about 'which type of turntable' to choose.
i am playing with a system for a friend and some new aquisitions.
i have had a massive TT set up for the last few days, before i had an excellent Systemdek Transcriprion TT running.....
as good as the Systemdek is, i am enjoying the precise rhythmic ability of teh non bouncy drive unit.
it adds so much more emotion to the performance other than the PRAT oriented flavour of suspended drive units.
as an observation, the Systemdek and Ariston that are here do this, the Thorens pre TD 320 bouncy ones do this as well but the leaf-spring suspension of the later models do this less, like the Michell and SME turntables.
the Little Beast that is running now adds power to the bass, in comparison to my Michell or TD 2001.
the beat takes on much more of the driving metronome quality that one hears in a live performance.

a massive turntable does take more effort to tune than a suspended one does.
one needs to pull the resonances (that are stored in the mass longer than a lighter build concept) away from the turntable for better focus.
creating a path for the vibrations to leave on but at the same time giving enough support to the record and cartridge to perform at their best so they do not lose their power.

Duficity,
you wanted to get more into the concept of what makes a TT good.
here are some thoughts of mine for helping you on the way.
food for thought and maybe a path to do some experimenting to your vinyl nirvana.

regards,
bas

[duficity]

Bas,
Thats exactly the kind of response I was looking for. Your preceptions seem to conincide with much of what is written on the sound of suspended vs. non suspended tables. Most of the criticism of suspended tables seems to be directed to those that isolate the motor from the platter/tonearm and would seem to be the result of belt stretching or platter movement. That is probably why idler wheel tables are getting favorable comments.
It would seem that you could build a heavy table with the motor and platter on the same plinth and then suspend the whole mass to avoid external vibrations from entering the signal path. I think that is what the S Cosmos does and there may be others. That would require a very smooth motor, but no smoother than any other ridgid table.

Do you know of any tables that are built that way?

[bastlnut]

there are many roads that lead to Rome,

it is not that easy.
any concept can be poorly executed and not show the merits one imagines.
i do not know if the motor needs to be mounted on the same base as the main bearing.
some isolation is needed.
even my beast has some motor isolation.
motor isolation means play. granted, very little but it is not an absolute ridgid connection.
an outboard motor can do the same as a ridgidly mounted motor, it just has more isolation.
i think that most of what can be found, varies greatly in mass. the principal is the same though.
how well it is integrated is another slice of the pie though.

there are a few who offer what you are looking for.
the Wilson Benesch
the Audio Note TT3 (Voyd) uses leaf springs like the Thorens and 3 motors for torque and good isolation.
teh VPI Classic 3 takes mass to a higher level than the Classic 1, and has had success with the results.
the Sota i would consider would be the Millenium with the option for a vacuum platter for later.
the Cosmos is too rustical looking, and it is still the same old recipe that runs out of quality and impact soon enough.
it is the Oracle that keeps pushing the envelope for suspended decks.
consider the SME 20 as well.
Teres, TW Acoustic, Brinkmann (also with a new DD development), Basis, Nottingham Analogue, teh new Audiomeca and Goldmund, the new EAR.....
the list goes on.

whatever build and concept that is used, the tweaking of what you place it on becomes more important the higher up the quality ladder you climb.

regards,
bas

[duficity]

I went back and read over some of the past issues of Stereophile and Absolute Sound to see if I could formulate any common theme from the various reviews. One review of particular interest was on a Clearaudio table which received a favorable review. Then a less expensive Clearaudio table of similar design was reviewed that had a magnetic bearing. That review opined that the lesser table was equal to or better than the more expensive product. The kicker to these reviews is that the reviewer then reviewed the original table with the upgraded magnetic platter and found that it was much better than either table. The obvious inference is that the magnetic bearing was responsible for the increased performance of the tables, since that was the only difference between the first and last table reviewed.

I also remember reading many years ago about mounting the motor on a belt drive table in line with the tonearm, thereby eliminating any perpendicular pull on the platter of a suspended table. The theory being that movement perpendicular to the stylus was worse than movement in line with the stylus. That seems to be the mounting method of the old Empire tables and now the new VPI classic which HW claims was inspired by the Empire. However, most belt drive table motors are not mounted that way and are almost universally in the back left had corner, perpendicular to the direction of stylus travel.

So, one might believe that using a magnetic platter bearing with a motor mounted in the front left corner would be necessary to achieve sonic excellence, along with all your other ideas of how a turntable should be designed.

So, if you took all the design concepts that have been proven to make a noticeable improvement in sound quality and put them all together, what table would you have? Would it have inverted bearings? Rim drive? lead platter? Air bearing tonearm? unipivot? fluid damping?. Can all the best design concepts even be put together in one table, or are some mutually exclusive. Having multiple tonearms on one table certainly addresses the tonearm issues, but you still have only one platter and bearing.

And how many angels can dance on the head of a pin?

[bastlnut]

hallo,

hm, the placement of the motor. mostly it is important for a suspended turntable that has the motor on a base other than the subchassis.
for a massive turntable, it is less important because nothing moves unless the motor is not in the plinth that houses the main bearing and the plinth uses flexible interface with what it is placed on.
if the motor is supported with flexible feet but not the main bearing then it is irrelevant because the platter will not be pulled in any direction.

you could look at a high end DD too.
http://www.brinkmann-audio.de/main.php? ... lt&lang=en

just to tease out the other possibilities for you.

regards,
bas

[Colin Dunn]

Just curious ... why is the name of a high-end turntable manufacturer (S0TA) being starred out like it's a cuss word?

Edit: even with spaces between the letters, the forum software turned the name of the manufacturer into "turntable." Replaced a vowel with a number this time.

Lawyeritis from some age-ago incident? I'd be reluctant to buy a multi-kilobuck turntable from any company that intimidates people or discussion forums who wish to freely discuss the pros/cons of their equipment. Hopefully the explanation is something else...

[Alec124c41]

Legalitis it is. They apparently objected to anybody else supplying their manuals. So Snota it is.

Cheers,
Alec

[duficity]

The couple running S are really nice, good people, so I dont know why or what occassioned the objection to publishing their manuals here. But thats why the name is obscured.

[duficity]

maybe we can try this backwards. What is the current state of the art in cutting lathes for vinyl. Surely the same resonances are created by the bearing and drive systems in the lathe, as well as the bearings in the cutting arm. Has much effort been expended on the cutting side of the technology lately, or is it mostly on the playback side and we are making do with the existing lathes, probably rebuilt.

Bas has given me some ideas on building my own table, with provision for multiple arms, probably 3, using one of my Sota platters with the vacuum system bolted to a slab of aluminum or lead, ridgid mount with an a/c motor, maybe rim drive, something like VPI used on their retrofitted rim drive model. I am impressed with the Sota platter/bearing. without a belt, you can set it spinning and get bored waiting before it stops, with no noise that I can hear. And I am convinced that a vacuum platter is the way to go.

[bastlnut]

hallo,

i don't know about a vacuum platter.....
it takes noisy parts to create the vacuum and many times does not hold the seal for the whole side.
warped records will not seal unless only slightly warped.
a hard Metacryl mat that is slightly dished, with the use of a clamp will do about the same and is a better surface to place warped records on.
another observation that i have made,
is that a turntable benefits from a bit of drag from the platter causing the motor and drive mechanic to be under a constant load.

Avid also makes a rim drive table. it looks interesting.
have you seen the DPS kits to build your own turntable.
Klein makes a separate motor with a complex control electronic and stainless steel housing that is all the rage here for DIYers.

regards,
bas