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Do I REALLY need to buy a new turntable?

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Do I REALLY need to buy a new turntable?

Postby djs259 » 04 Dec 2010 19:58

Hello gentlemen. Let me begin by saying that I am no connoisseur when it comes to stereo equipment in general or vinyl in particular; I am just a guy with a small mini-system and a very basic turntable seeking some diversion in the hallowed activity of browsing through stacks of old records in basement shops, and then walking home triumphantly with my "treasure" under one arm in eager anticipation of once again hearing the sounds of a bygone era pour forth from their undulating black recesses as vinyl gives way to diamond.

My turntable is an AIWA PX-E860. It is pretty much one of the myriad generic turntables that have appeared on the market in recent years, complete with built in pre-amp and "cheap" plastic construction (though it does have a sleek appearance and nice rubber platter mat). It was purchased about nine years ago. Until recently, it had seen only a handful of uses; probably something in the neighborhood of 4 or 5 hours of play with some "garage sale" finds. It has always been treated and stored with extreme care and never subjected to any abuse whatsoever.

So when I decided to get back into vinyl recently, I went ahead and purchased a replacement diamond stylus cartridge a few weeks ago ($8.30 on an auction site), just to be sure I would have a smooth operating system with which to reinvigorate my interest in playing records. Since then, I have sought out and purchased some factory new records, both older sealed copies, as well as several 180 gram audiophile re-releases. My records sounded wonderful, and I was happy with this simple setup.

Recently, when closely observing the movement of my turntable during play, I noticed something slightly disturbing: it seems as if the turntable platter itself does not revolve with perfect symmetry but seems to bob up and down ever so slightly, so as to impart some very subtle movement to the tonearm during play. It's not dramatic, but it is visible. I don't see that the cantilever is being disturbed or "bottoming" out during play; it looks very steady and firm. The tonearm/cartridge just shows a very subtle bobbing motion as it tracks the record.

Now, being almost completely ignorant of the technical side of vinyl technology, I am concerned as to whether or not this represents a catastrophic problem in terms of potential damage to the new vinyl records in which I have recently invested.

I would appreciate hearing the perspective of more experience members here before attempting to replace this turntable, since my 180 gram reissues (even with the crappy mini-system) still sound dazzlingly brilliant to my ears; clear and crisp with great bass, much better than the remastered CD versions of the same albums in my collection. If I do replace the turntable, it will probably be with something in the same price range ($100) like the Audio-Technica AT-LP60, so I just want to make sure I don't end up with a brand new turntable that doesn't sound as good as the one I already have out of some ill-conceived apprehension. I can vaguely, vaguely remember the turntable operating the same way since new out of the box, though I was much less concerned to scrutinize it back then as most of the records I was playing on it were quite CHEAP and expendable. I suppose my initial impression was "if that's how they shipped it, it must be within acceptable tolerances and not a defect in the strict sense of being "broken".

My main concern is protecting the new "audiophile" vinyl I've recently acquired from harm until I upgrade my stereo equipment to a more elaborate setup in the future.

Thank you all in advance for any helpful insight you might have to offer that sheds light on this issue.
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Postby rorenoren » 04 Dec 2010 20:17

Hi,

there won´t be damage caused by a slight move of the platter.
(maybe 1mm)

But, this shows that weather an impact "injured" the platter/bearing (plastic?), or the Turntable is so cheap, that this lies within its tolerances.

If the tracking force does not exceed about 2,5gramms, the wear of the record will be normal.
(similar to any other TT)

The problem is, you don´t know the tracking force, as it is not adjustable.

The arm´s bearigs are not precisely crafted, which allows play and vibrations.
(not too good for your records)

But you can go on using it.


A better TT is always a better way.
(and almost any TT will be better in this case)

This Aiwa seems to be one of the cheapest TTs with a magnetic pickup.

I´d go for a better TT in the near future.

Your records will thank you for that.

For about 50 $, Pound, Euro, you´ll find a simple but solid used TT.

Add a cartridge for about 20-50 and you have a much better TT then now.

The sound does not necessarily get much better, but precision of the arm does help to save your records.

Regards, Jens
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Postby sreten » 04 Dec 2010 22:28

Hi,

Hardly any records are perfectly flat, up and down bobbing is normal.

There is no point at all in buying something similar like the AT.

An $8.30 cartridge ? Hmmm...... this is worth the investment :
http://www.amazon.com/Audio-technica-AT ... 865&sr=1-1

It sounds better than CD ? I wouldn't like to have your CD player .....

Depending on your mini system the speakers are usually either
half decent or garbage, some used decent cheap proper hifi
speakers can make a huge difference to some mini systems.

rgds, sreten.
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Postby djs259 » 04 Dec 2010 23:03

Thank you to everyone who's taken the time to reply thus far.

It does seem as if the platter is moving about 1 mm or perhaps even less while spinning, at all points of its circumference.

My mini-system is a Panasonic SA-PM 19; probably is garbage by the standards of many members of this board, but I think it sounds quite vibrant for such a tiny system.

What I was referring to in my post regarding sound quality was a direct comparison I conducted between the 180 gram vinyl re release of the Red Hot Chili Pepper album Uplift Mofo Party Plan and the recent CD version using the same master. Though I was able to get much more volume out of the CD due to the turntable's obviously weak built in pre-amp, the vinyl did sound more dynamic and clear overall on the same system, with slightly more dramatic, thwacking base lines. This is only my personal subjective impression of course, though, to be sure, any judgment regarding audio quality (assuming a system of equal craftsmanship and power) must ultimately rest on a set of prior aesthetic judgments which are themselves in turn grounded on individual perceptions and preferences.

I guess then I'll stay away from buying a new Audio-Technica cheepie turntable for fear of ending up with a similar quality platter and losing nearly 100 bucks in the process.
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Postby rorenoren » 04 Dec 2010 23:20

Hi,

it is absolutely ok that you like the sound of your system/TT.

I had a very cheap Benytone TT (fleamarket 2 Euros) with almost complete plastic parts being used.
(platter was made from ca. 200g of aluminium, whole TT was about 1kg)

The cartride was a cheap Jelco (made by Excel?) MM, obviously the originally mounted one.
(it was as new, that´s why I bought it)

I was shocked to hear this plastic box sound quite well and track almost every record well, too.

I still have the cart, but thrashed that TT.

So, no problem.

Regards, Jens
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Postby cafe latte » 05 Dec 2010 00:33

I would get a cheap used , but better TT as the one you have I think has no anti skate, it will be pre set. Often with midi system TT's the diamond wears unevenly. Also the headshell is often twisted to one side or the other, or the stylus is. With a more expensive TT you can adjust the arm so the needle is vertical in the groove. Again the downforce is not known.
I do not know your budget, but an old revolver, dual, pioneer, Sonab and a million other good brands can be picked up really cheaply and ensure the black stuff stays in good condition :D
You never know you may be inspired to get a whole vintage system.. Some really nice stuff can be picked up very cheap if you know what to look for.
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Postby djs259 » 05 Dec 2010 02:16

You know, there must be something to what sreten wrote earlier about most records not even being completely flat. As I write, the 180 gram "Back To Black" reissue of Jimi Hendrix's Are You Experienced? is spinning on my turntable. I received a new factory sealed copy a few days ago and opened it only twenty minutes ago. And what did I find? The record is brand new and spotless, though slightly warped and the label is pressed WAY off center. And guess what, it also sounds WAY WAY better than the CD version released in the past few years by the Hendrix family from the same master. The difference is astonishing. Frankly, I don't know if perhaps the CD player in my system does in fact suck...what I do know is that I've NEVER heard any Jimi Hendrix recording sound this ALIVE. It's breathtaking.

Can't wait for the other records I've ordered to arrive, though some of them are of such a nature as to make it difficult to admit liking them in a public forum without subjecting myself to being bashed and mocked..LOL
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Postby mrow2 » 06 Dec 2010 00:46

You could certainly have some fun exploring the availability of second hand TTs in your area. If you choose one with a really nice cartridge (possible to do) you could replace just the stylus and have a real nice unit. If ordinary or low end cartridge you can replace the assembly for $20-50 and get good performance. In the end, you may not hear a great deal of difference but it will be fun to explore this a bit and acquire some knowledge. The records might last longer, as your present stylus is almost surely a conical type, and possibly playing at 2.5 grams or so. New vintage unit will track at 1.5 grams or even 1.25 perhaps.
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Postby nat » 06 Dec 2010 15:44

I suspect that the Aiwa has a pmount arm, in which case, the alignment and tracking force/antiskate are already set, and probably correct.
I generally don't think that people who are happy with their system should feel they need to do anything other than listen to music and change the stylus every year or two -- unless you really want to spend lots of time obsessing about upgrades etc., why get on that track?
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Postby rorenoren » 06 Dec 2010 16:18

Hi,

that Aiwa is even of lower quality than the usual T4P or P Mount TTs are.

It´s this one:

http://img1.classistatic.com/cps/bln/10 ... _id=2C4000

(I wish I was wrong!)

It is right not to force people to buy better stuff.

Here we have a situation where the quality of the arm (VTF, Azimuth) may be so bad, that the records could wear more than on "usual" TTs.

I don´t think that a better TT will improve the sound very much in this setup, but feel, the records might last longer.

I only saw TTs similar to the Aiwa on fleamarkets and in shops.

Those had several mm play in their arm bearings.
(that are metal rods in plastic holes)

Of course, the up and down of the platter is the least problem, not critical for the life of the records.

It´s the arm.


Regards, Jens
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Postby lini » 06 Dec 2010 16:54

djs: Honestly, your Aiwa table really is on the very low end in terms of quality. So, if you're worried about your records, I'd also suggest to go for a nice, used table that ranges at least one quality class higher. Something like a Technics SL-BD20 would already be pretty ok - that's only one example, though. Or if you'd like to keep the compact form factor, you could also look into a nice, little linear tracker like for example the Technics SL-5. Add to that a new Audio-Technica AT92ECD cartridge for ca. 20 bucks, and you've already reached decent entry-level hifi quality - should be doable for around 50 bucks altogether (at least unless you'd also need a priceworthy phono stage (typical hifi turnables don't sport an integrated MM pre-amp stage, whereas many of the "toy class" turntables do...) like for example the Audio Technica AT-PEQ3, which you should be able to find for around 45 bucks...).

Greetings from Munich!

Manfred / lini
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Postby cafe latte » 06 Dec 2010 23:45

lini wrote:djs: Honestly, your Aiwa table really is on the very low end in terms of quality. So, if you're worried about your records, I'd also suggest to go for a nice, used table that ranges at least one quality class higher. Something like a Technics SL-BD20 would already be pretty ok - that's only one example, though. Or if you'd like to keep the compact form factor, you could also look into a nice, little linear tracker like for example the Technics SL-5. Add to that a new Audio-Technica AT92ECD cartridge for ca. 20 bucks, and you've already reached decent entry-level hifi quality - should be doable for around 50 bucks altogether (at least unless you'd also need a priceworthy phono stage (typical hifi turnables don't sport an integrated MM pre-amp stage, whereas many of the "toy class" turntables do...) like for example the Audio Technica AT-PEQ3, which you should be able to find for around 45 bucks...).

Greetings from Munich!

Manfred / lini

Totally agree!! There are many many cheap possibilities that will make your records last longer.
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been looking into getting a better turntable

Postby djs259 » 21 Feb 2011 07:36

Well, after playing my records on a cheap plastic turntable for a few months I decided to take the advice of more than one person on this forum and upgrade to something at least one class above the totally non-adjustable P-mount type. I had been looking into the Technics SL-BD20 mentioned previously but having read some bad user experiences and noticing that the tonearm on that model also seems to be constructed of plastic, I decided to pass on a used model in favor of the PYLE PYLTTB3U belt drive with pitch control, metal tonearm and VTF/ anti-skate adjustment. After reading some good reviews online I decided to give it a try to see if I get better sound from it than what my AIWA PX-E860 has been yielding (not too bad) thus far. Now before everyone here starts yelling at me to "buy something decent for pete's sake", I made sure to order the PYLE turntable from a reputable source that accepts no questions asked returns so if it ends up being crap I really don't stand to lose anything. And if it's good then I will probably upgrade the cartridge/stylus to something better.

Anyone here ever seen this turntable (PYLE) or heard anything about it? If this doesn't work out the next step will be the Audio Technica AT-PL120 for 2 bills. Call me cheeep but I'm listening to LPs on a mini hi-fi system with a pre-amp so I don't see the sense of spending more than mentioned on a turntable I'll be using with tiny bookshelf speakers.

Would love to hear some more input. Thank you.
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Postby rhomanski » 21 Feb 2011 10:24

My advice would depend on how you feel and how old you are. When I got into vinyl in the late 60's, all I had to play them on was a cheap Sears Record Player in blue plastic. After seeing what happened to other peoples vinyl. I knew mine would wear out too. I bought a very early mono cassette tape player and recorded my vinyl. The result today is I still have my vinyl in decent condition and enjoy listening to them on good equipment. I look forward to enjoying them for at least several years to come. I have gone to a lot of places and gotten vinyl off e prey and most have not been in as good of condition as mine. I am glad I had the foresight to preserve my vinyl in good shape. I know now that my player won't damage my vinyl so I can play it whenever I want. To replace those old records with equal would be extremely difficult.

In short, the sound to me is not as important in the long run as protecting the vinyl. I would advise getting the best player you can. Take care of that vinyl. It may become almost irreplaceable.

Regards,

Ron.
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