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Pro-Ject Rpm 5,1

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Postby Bob_in_OKC » 28 Nov 2010 15:30

I mentioned the Music Hall specifically because of its relationship to Pro-Ject. It uses a Pro-Ject tonearm and would have some similar sound characteristics. Upgrade parts like counterweights, the Speed Box, platters, etc. will generally match.

Whether it’s a clone would apparently depend on your definition of the word. I’d say a clone is the same. There is no Pro-Ject model like the Music Hall MMF-7.1. My reason for mentioning the MMF-7.1 in particular is that the motor is not physically attached to turntable. That does a terrific job of isolating vibration and the motor could be replaced without any tools.

Further on Pro-Ject and Music Hall – What many people don’t realize is that Pro-Ject isn’t building turntables. They have them built to their specifications at a factory that has been building turntables since long before Pro-Ject existed. Music Hall is Roy Hall doing the same...at the same factory...although the major parts like the tonearm, motor and subplatter were made for Pro-Ject.

If you’re considering a Technics, you really need to audition one. The sound difference between Technics and Pro-Ject is huge. I bought one after having been convinced by the forums. It was inexpensive on the used market and I knew I could sell it if I didn’t like it. And I really didn’t like it. If you subscribe to the belief that a Pro-Ject sounds musical, then to me the Technics was an un-musical turntable – a sound that to me seemed to match up in a bad way with its tank-like build. I’m not saying this to bash Technics. I know the fans of that turntable can argue about its superiority until long after I’ve gone to bed. But you said you like the Pro-Ject sound. I too like the Pro-Ject sound. Given that, the Technics is quite a departure - one that I wouldn't get into without a good long audition or a used turntable that I could re-sell without a big loss.
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Postby v1nn1e » 28 Nov 2010 21:26

Very interesting debate and clearly motor issues seem to be the issue with Pro-ject decks these days, which is a great shame.

If you are saving up and looking ahead for you next deck I would strongly advise considering a suspended sub-chassis model. These tend to side-step any issues with motor hum/buzz/vibration.

IMHO, the expensive Pro-jects just don't seem to be good VfM - I would start to look at ClearAudio for a solid plinth design for not too much more money.

Otherwise, as mentioned already I think, a Thorens model might be better, although beware that some components might be shared with Pro-ject.
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Postby Vinyl and Tube Dude » 28 Nov 2010 21:47

12ax7_vinyl wrote:1. I mentioned the Music Hall specifically because of its relationship to Pro-Ject. It uses a Pro-Ject tonearm and would have some similar sound characteristics. Upgrade parts like counterweights, the Speed Box, platters, etc. will generally match.



2. If you’re considering a Technics, you really need to audition one. The sound difference between Technics and Pro-Ject is huge. If you subscribe to the belief that a Pro-Ject sounds musical, then to me the Technics was an un-musical turntable – .

1. That is exactly what I ment by clone
2. That's my thoughts about Technis, that it would sound "un musical" in my ears And thats what I thought about Rega too, it was too clinical for my taste, to close to a CD sound I think. A let me say to Technis and Rega fans: I too dont mean to trash the two brands. Lord knows theres enough debate on that on other treads :roll:

About the Music hall MMF 7.1. The pricetag in Denmark is about what I would pay for a TT excluding a cartridge. The prices on Hi-fi is not very different in US and EU given the fact that I would have to pay tax to get it in to Denmark anyway. I find the MMF 7,1 interesting and it's nice I could use my speedbox and choose a "heavy" cartridge when I have a counterweight to match.
Is there any similar problems with the motor there like on the RPM line and can you buy a spare motor? If it's easy to change, that would be an option to buy an extra motor later. That and an extra rubberband for the platter/motor would increase the TT life expectancy for years
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Postby Vinyl and Tube Dude » 28 Nov 2010 21:56

v1nn1e wrote:If you are saving up and looking ahead for you next deck I would strongly advise considering a suspended sub-chassis model. These tend to side-step any issues with motor hum/buzz/vibration.

IMHO, the expensive Pro-jects just don't seem to be good VfM - I would start to look at ClearAudio for a solid plinth design for not too much more money.

Otherwise, as mentioned already I think, a Thorens model might be better, although beware that some components might be shared with Pro-ject.
I have been looking at Thorens and Clear Audio. But when I read the reweivs, it seems that only the expencive models gets good grades. When you look at the ClearAudio and Thorens models in the RPM 5,1 and MMF 7,1 pricerange they get only fairly good grades. I have never thought about suspended sub-chassis models because I have my TT on a self with damping feet under it and I have no negative feedback from my Debut after I removed the dust lid. suspended sub-chassis cost a lot and since I dont need it, I'd rather pay for tonearm and motor/platter.
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Postby bastlnut » 28 Nov 2010 22:11

hallo,

i am testing the motor on my Debut II and it has been going for 2 weeks now without stop.
still good and quiet as ever, including the main bearing as well....

you may want to look at the Thorens TD 309.

regards,
bas
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Postby moon unit » 28 Nov 2010 22:21

Back to your original question, I have a Pro-Ject 5.1 and I think it sounds fantastic. It comes with the 9cc arm which is highly under-rated and fitted with the Blue Point #2 (in the USA). Before I got the table I was convinced (especially by this forum) that I would have problems with motor vibration and hum. On my table there is no hum. When I connected the Speed Box I got a bit of hum at very high volume but not for long, I believe the belt was tight and it stretched out some. I have had my table for 8 months and don't use it every day but when I do I use it for several hours, only stopping the motor to change sides or records. No hum at the beginning or end of a session. The motor does not get hot nor the power supply. Now caffe latte interjects on every thread dealing with Pro-Jects and I don't doubt he had a bad experience with his, but I don't think that's the norm. Frankly, it's getting tiring. I don't know if they have revised the motors or I am just lucky but I suspect it is the former. Also, the build quality is excellent and I'm tired of hearing that complaint as well.

In short, I'm certain you will be thrilled with the 5.1 Pro-Ject, don't let others dissuade you.
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Postby cafe latte » 29 Nov 2010 00:29

Hi Moon unit, You are taking my input wrong. I am very glad you are having no problems at the moment as it is no fun and enjoying vinyl is what it is all about.On the other side you have only had the TT 8 months and my motor did not hum either after 8 months, it took 18 to even start and the first time was when I lifted the stylus to answer the phone and forgot about it for 2 hours, after already having it on for a couple of hours (it was the buzz that reminded me). I am not bashing Project I have said many times they are a good TT let down by a motor problem and a bearing that gets noisy (if you do not believe about how real the motor problem is read the thread on the subject a few down from this that runs into pages). I am simply passing on my experiences and trying to help. I am sorry you do not apreciate my input, but others I feel do.
When I bought my Project rpm 6.1sb if I had known the motors were a problem on some models in the range, but not others I would have bought the one without the potential problem, but it it turned out all models buzz I would have bought something else as I really do not want the trouble. Also nobody here is saying it is a sure thing that the motor will start to buzz on all Project TT's, but there is enough evidence to say that it happens to many many after a time which I feel is something people need to know. My own Technics had a problem with very high capacitance leads. I ran a thread on the topic and we worked out there was a lead changover by Panasonic at a certain point, anyway the new leads were such a high capacitance they were no good, but due to the thread I did here on the topic it ended up Panasonic changed the leads!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (KAB took up the case with Panasonic, but it all started here) So apart from making other members aware of a problem if problem are mentioned changes can happen
CL
From reading around it seems the debut do not seem to have a problem , but the larger heavier decks.
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Postby bastlnut » 29 Nov 2010 00:46

hallo,

to be fair here,
CL, you do always bring the same story when a ProJect TT is mentioned,
and always push the 1210....
and new, you are also pushing KAB......
with just about every post you write.

you do have valid points.
just not every time and the repeating when someone brings another opinion.
i think you have some really good experience with quite a collection of cartridges now.
please write about them from your perspective, not what someone said about them to you.
what you have learned does not limit you to writing only about the above mentioned TT's.
the basic pricipals will also work with any TT.

regards,
bas
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Postby cafe latte » 29 Nov 2010 00:56

Back to TT's I have been having a look at a few reviews as promised...
Scheu analog cello/bb250 1000 pound 4 star Coments good bass weight, crisp atmospheric treble, style and build, against muddled midband.
Thorens td700 1100 pounds 4 star comments fine stage depth, keen musicality, easy set up Against lacks bass detail and inpact
Project 6 perspex 1250 pounds 4 star coments fine mid clarity good low end detail precise soundstaging Against bass limpid
The funk firm vector 1350 pounds 5 star coments stunning spatiality, supurb low end detail taut rhythmicality, crisp treble, against slight lack bass inpact.
Avid Diva ii/ jelco sa-250st 1300 pounds 4 star coments supurb bass, excellent imagery,mid and treble detail Against nothing at the price
Acustic solid wood rb300 1500 pounds 5 star coments supurbs bass weight, fine timing and pace, crisp detailed top end, minimal set up needed, against imagery a little constrained
On this shootout the winner was the Avid
Need to go and do some work, will post a few more later
CL
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Postby cafe latte » 29 Nov 2010 01:12

Hi Bas ,
I do push Technics, but only when I feel it is an option for the OP I am not pushing it here, I even made a joke of it as it is clearly not an option.
I am not pushing Kab, they have nothing to do with me, but another member during the cable capacitance thread contacted Kab and they chased Panasonic so it was not just the thread that got the cables changed , so I was making it clear it was not all down to me, but the thread got the ball rolling. Also when I have mentioned Kab recently it was to show a couple of members the DISCONTINUED dj cart on there site and was speaking of how to get similar results as the Kab version yourself, so not pushing anyone as they no longer sell what I was talking about.I would never push any company on this forum
The project motor issue is valid and needs mentioning and for someone who you say only pushes Technics I seem to be reccomending a lot of diferent TT's here and non are DD
CL
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Postby Bob_in_OKC » 29 Nov 2010 01:40

Vinyl and Tube Dude wrote:Is there any similar problems with the motor there like on the RPM line and can you buy a spare motor? If it's easy to change, that would be an option to buy an extra motor later. That and an extra rubberband for the platter/motor would increase the TT life expectancy for years


While I don't know whether the MMF-7.1 or its predecessor (MMF-7) has had a problem with that motor, it is indeed available as a spare part. Here in the US, sites like http://www.needledoctor.com stock the current parts. The old parts can be ordered directly from Roy Hall. I don't know what access you'd have where you are, but since you have a dealer somewhat nearby, I'd guess that's your best source.
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Postby cafe latte » 29 Nov 2010 02:59

It is an interesting question, does anyone know if the MMF-7 has the same motor (be it mounted differently) to other Projects and music hall models. If not has anyone had any problems with it? Loking at the way it is suported seperatly, maybe the bearings are under less stress so maybe it is more reliable?? (just postulating)
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Postby Vinyl and Tube Dude » 29 Nov 2010 05:42

It's indeed interesting, cafe latte, about the MMF 7 motor. And I allso note your good experience, moon unit. And off cause, if ALL TT's in the RPM line had hum issues Pro-ject would not been selling mutch, they would have a bad rep in no time. I starting to think the MMF 7,1 is the way to go. Mutch of the other brands mentioned, I have to 1. buy online in antoher country or 2. get it home by a danish shop. Either way, I can't hear it first. Right now I think MMF 7,1 would be worth the trip for a listen. It's in a pricerange I can accept and save up to with in the next 9 or 10 months and it seems to have the qualities I'm looking for; The "Pro-ject sound", good Pro-ject 9 arm and VTA (easy to set up, and the Debut arm is allready rater good for the price), acryllic platter (did good for my Debut), RCA plugs (choose my own cabels), Grounding wire and seperate motor (hopefully no "Grado hum") and good damping feet. And I allready have the Speedbox (allso did good for the Debut). The way the belt works made me think that there can't be mutch rumble since the motor is'nt underneath the platter.
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Postby moon unit » 29 Nov 2010 08:52

cafe latte,

I'm sorry if my post came off a bit harsh but as bastlnut posted you always bring up the same story anytime a Pro-Ject is mentioned. When you post the same thing 100s of times it gets tiring, we ALL know about your experience with the 6.1! :D The thread on the motor problems is what originally convinced me that I would have problems but I have none.

If I have offended you in any way, I apologize.

I really don't forsee myself having any problem with the motor or the platter bearing, you have to bear in mind that the 6.1 has a platter well over twice the weight of my 5.1 and would likely put more strain on the related parts. It's possible that the 6.1's 4.25kg platter, on a turntable whose total weight is only 8kg, exceeds the capabilities of the basic Pro-Ject suspended motor platform. I'm fairly certain the 6.1 SB is no longer being produced, maybe the basic design had too many inherent problems.

Worst case scenario, if my motor eventually begins to buzz it is only $48 US (was only $30 a few months ago) to replace it. I think I can handle that.

regards,
mu
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