Pro-Ject Rpm 5,1

[Vinyl and Tube Dude]

As one can see on my system profile, I own a Debut III with small modifications. Basically I'm happy with the "sound colour" I've have "created" with the cartridge and so on. I would just like a bit more of everything: More details, more bass and a wider stereo. Not a hole lot, just a bit. I'm out early with my question, because I'll wait until the end of the summer next year before I buy a new TT. (we need other things first)
That dosent stop me from looking now of course I have my heart set on Pro-ject RPM 5,1 with Grado Reference Platinum, because I like "the Grado sound". I have my amp modified and my system inc. Grado Gold have never sounded better; warm, relaxed and open, so I think I'm ready for a TT upgrade, but I allso dont want to spend a hole lot of money on a "killer TT" that would be better than my system and never could the most out of it anyway, if you know what I mean. I like the fact tha Pro-ject RPM 5,1 has RCA plugs so I can choose my own cabels, It's able to ground it som you dont get the "Grado hum" like some Rega owners have written about. I have the speedbox II allready and it has VTA adjustment so I can try different mats and other cartridges.
But here's the thing: I have read on this forum that there's hum issues from the motoer after a year or so ?
So I really would like some feedback from owners of Pro-ject RPM 5,1 and other TT's from the RPM line. How long did you own it/ how old is it? (if you bought used) and do you have / or have not hum issues from the motor or mayby other problems?
I would really appreciate some feedback, thanks in adwance

[cafe latte]

I bought my 6.1sb new, it was treated like a baby and had little use. The problem seems to be (my observation) is that on the better TT's in the Project and Music hall range were the platters are heavier the motor just cant cope. The first symptoms are during a longer session were you listen for more than a couple of hours, the motor getting hotter and starts to badly buzz. As time goes on the time before buzzing starts gets less and the buzz gets worse. Also the ceramic bearings also wear very quickly and get noisy, again due to the heavier platter. The basic design of the new range is good, but until these problems are addressed i would look elsewere.

[Bob_in_OKC]

I'm a fan of Pro-Ject because of the tonearms - They're under-appreciated in the online forums. After having a Debut III and a Music Hall MMF-5, as well as hearing some other brands of turntables with Pro-Ject arms installed, I believe they're great value and have a sound quality that is easier to listen to than your average tonearm.

That said, there are actually three things that can go wrong with a Pro-Ject motor. You could get the buzz that cafe latte described. I did. It took me about the same length of time as described, but mine got consistent use. You could get the hum when a Grado cartridge gets too close to the motor. I got that one, too. I bought mine as a demo and the dealer kept the original Goldring and sent a Grado. Needless to say, I took issue with that. 3rd...some of the Pro-Ject motors just vibrate from spinning so hard.

That's really a lot to deal with, if you ask me. I'm still a fan of lighter turntables and I don't plan to change from that anytime soon, but I did switch to a Rega and am quite happy with it. The RP1 is getting good reviews. The P3-24 packaged with the TTPSU is a terrific setup. The P5 with a TTPSU is even better and the P7 is astonishingly good. There's no price point where I think Rega doesn't beat Pro-Ject, but that's just one man's opinion.

[Vinyl and Tube Dude]

So the problem is that Pro-ject use the same motor regardless of the platter? That's not very smart. Maybe I should go for Rega then? Just too bad you can't ground wire it Because I really like Grado cartridges and like I wrote before, I read about hum issues with the Rega motor and Grado too

[Bob_in_OKC]

I disagree that the problem is a function of the weight of the platter, but I'm no expert. The reason I disagree is that based on the way an AC synchronous motor works, it isn't working harder when it is turning a heavier platter. The magnetic forces are alternating around the cylinder the same, regardless of whether the magnet inside turns and regardless of how heavy the platter is. One would think the buzz comes from a moving part, but it doesn't.

Given that, I don't think it's a problem if Pro-Ject doesn't use a different motor for different platters. Higher torque can work against you, just like a lighter platter can. The problem is apparently in the windings of the motor. For some reason, Rega doesn't have a similar problem, but they will sometimes pick up on the Grado hum issue. It's less prevalent and apparently less noticeable, but it's commonly there. I remember there being a member of another forum who said the sound quality of his Grado Sonata was well worth whatever small amount of hum he could hear with it mounted on his Rega P5.

If you really enjoy the Pro-Ject sound, I tend to think it's worth the risk. But like I said above, I found I like the Rega sound. My Debut III has not given me trouble, but I figure one of these days I might need to replace the motor. I got the turntable cheap enough that it won't really bother me much.

[cafe latte]

Not sure I totally agree, I feel that the fact that it happens in the begining after a while when the motor is phisically hot (too hot IMO) a better motor should solve the problem. I wonder if Project are using a 100% duty cycle motor?? I am guessing not, or the platter is too heavy for the motor. All in all why it happens is less important, it should not and it does.
The bearing can also get noisy, but I have read that a few Guys have filled with oil (you are not supposed to) and this extended the bearing on a bit. My Technics sounds much better than my Project 6.1sb ever did and I agree that a Rega p3-24 is also a great sounding TT that will give you far less trouble than the Project. Just be aware of a couple of quirks with the Rega's.. First VTA is not adjustable except by shims (pain in the ar**) or by an aftermarket device that you can fit to the arm (best option). Second the antiskate is too strong and many Rega users set it to zero, but they can advise better here.

[Bob_in_OKC]

I'm not saying a better motor isn't the answer. I'm saying the weight of the platter does not strain the motor. It doesn't have gears or other physical connections to strain. It's similar to the motor on an electric clock. You can stop the clock's hands without hurting the motor.

Was your Pro-Ject one of the low-voltage models? Mine was 120V. I wonder if the recent low-voltage models even have this issue at all.

I think the pain in the ar** factor is overstated on the Rega. Remove the three screws on top, slip in three washers and put the screws back in. The aftermarket spacers are almost that easy. Pull the interconnect cable up through the turntable deck, put the spacer down and put the cable back through before re-installing the three screws. And besides that, the whole VTA issue is a little overstated. A little less tracking force would probably have the same effect on the stylus rake angle as adjusting the arm does. In fact, it sounds just great with the arm riding 2mm low. Most of us seem to fiddle with our turntables too much...or at least talk about it too much.

[cafe latte]

I was talking about motor load, all ac electric motors will get buzzy and noisy under too much load, it is not quite as simple as stopping a clock with your finger. Of course a motor has no gears, but a good example of my point is an electric drill, that will spin all day with no load, but soon start to get hot when you start drilling as most drills are not 100% duty cycle at load, so what I am saying is the motor on the Project maybe is not 100% duty cycle at the load required for the heavier platter TT's. When I had my Project I did an experiment at the time and took the platter off and let the motor run for a couple of hours while we were eating and it did not start to buzz. After eating I replaced the platter and it played fine for an hour or so and then started to buzz (under load), but if I left the platter on from the start it buzzed within an hour or so, so the 2 hours with no load (platter off) did not contribute to making it buzz, only the load of the platter. Also after the 2 hours of no platter the motor was only slightly warm, but after an hour or so with the platter on it was hot, so my feeling a motor with a higher duty cycle for the load required is needed.
I was not putting down the Rega's, I was just pointing out a couple of minor points that many find annoying , but do not bother some people.

[Bob_in_OKC]

I get what you're saying now. I suppose the load would cause it to draw more current, which would eventually cause more heat. However, I tried these same types of experiments many times and found no consistency in the results except that removing the plastic cover from the motor helped for a while. Mine would even buzz running with the belt removed. Maybe mine was just a worse case than yours.

As for Rega...it's obviously a matter of preference. And preferences can change. I remember early in the days that I got on these forums, I got in a somewhat memorable audiokarma thread where there was a guy with a Rega who now has a Well Tempered, one with a Technics who now has a Rega, one with a Technics who now has a VPI, one with a Pioneer who changed to Music Hall and then to Technics, and of course me with my Music Hall. There were others involved but you get the idea. We're changing turntables like Hollywood starlets and their boyfriends.

[Vinyl and Tube Dude]

Interresting debate and thanks for the good feedback. I certainly wont say anything bad about Rega. I heard a P1 and P5 in a store but I liked the sound of pro-ject more, it's only a matter of taste. If the hum is a matter of platter weight, I guess the Pro-Ject 2 Xperience is out of the question too? But if it's a matter moving parts that could be better, are they of a better quality in the Pro-Ject 2 Xperience? After all it cost more but with the same tonearm. The extra money has to go to something right? Are there other TT's in the same pricerange of the RPM 5,1 with VTA, grounding and RCA sockets? I dont want to buy used.

[Bob_in_OKC]

With that particular Pro-Ject turntable, there are some places where the extra money shows up. The tonearm would be a major upgrade compared to the budget Pro-Ject turntables. That's probably most of it. The platter is an interesting composite that would cost a bit to manufacture. I'd say there's more money in the acrylic deck and the adjustable feet, too. But judging from a photo I saw in a review, I wonder if maybe it is indeed the same motor. That said, you could perhaps get something like a Music Hall MMF-7.1, where the motor is not even permanently mounted to the deck. If by chance you needed to replace it, it would be very easy...and you can use a Speed Box II with it.

[cafe latte]

Another thought, not sure how much they are, but how about the new systemdek, they are getting amazing reviews. This is just one thought, but if you can wait for tomorrow morning for me which is night for you I will go through a few reviews and give you a selection, for one I remember reading a very good review on an Avid recently also Thorens td309 hifinews outstanding product
Michell technodec which is a budget gyrodec, might be a thought?
Have to say it or it would not be m how about a Technics sl1210
I will have a think for a few more options
CL

[Vinyl and Tube Dude]

Looking forward to some info from you cafe latte when you wake up
About Music Hall MMF-7.1, I have been looking at it online. Because there is a MMF dealer only one hour drive from my town. Isn't MMF a "pro-ject clone"? I had been tinking about a Technics sl1210 too but I dont think it's what I'm looking for allthough a lot of people seems to be happy with it.
By the way. I have an extra heavy pro-ject counter weight for the debut tonearm can that be used on the pro-ject 9 arm that sits on the MMF 7,1?

[cafe latte]

Just going to bed i will have a good look in the morning. The Music hall range are projects clones and the other post on your thread were from someone who had a music hall so the motor issue is still a problem. Shame you cany here a Technics, but it took me years to take the leap, and we all have different taists. I think your weight will be fine , but Music hall is a bit different to Project, so I do not want to commit myself.
I understand how you fell at present re project, music hall, they are, seem good value for money, but i feel the corners cut are a big issue. The wall wart (psu) ran so hot on my Project, not only did I have to switch off the TT, but also unplug the wall wart. When I bought my Project it was the last TT I was ever going to buy and I ended up really disapointed.
Every month I get a number of mags and in the morning I will go through and see what they agree on and I will give published guide prices.
To save me a bit of time what is your max spend in pounds or dollars (mags are UK inports).
Whatever i say try to here for yourself if you can.
Speak in the morning
CL