DL-103R + Cinemag + Phono-1 / M97xE= ? Ohms

[LEVLHED]

Here's an equation I'm trying to determine, realizing there may not be a 100% right answer...

I've got a DL-103R to run into a Bobs Devices Cinemag SUT.

I'm considering a SS Phono Pre by Vista-Audio, the PHONO-1, which can be customized (load and gain) to your specific cart. While I *could* just have it made specifically for the 103R, since I already have the Cinemag (which many feel is a match made in heaven) I'm planning to just have the PHONO-1 done as a standard MM pre.

However, since I have the option to customize, I am wondering if it makes sense to actually have the PHONO-1 made for what is reported as the ideal loading for a Shure M97xE? That is the only other cart I can foresee using on my rig (with a Jico SAS) anytime in the future.

If I remember correctly, the ideal loading for the M97 is 62k ohms (?). The burning question is if that would have a NEGATIVE effect on the Cinemag SUT? If it is not cool, then I'd rather optimize for the DL-103R/SUT than the Shure.

I barely understand all of the variables involved, and maybe I'm making much ado about nothing significant....but I'm pretty sure someone around here can help me understand the pros/cons so that I can come to a better-informed decision!

[sreten]

Hi,

It will increase the primary impedances from 184 and 52
ohms to 242 and 67 ohms, no big deal. Adding 220k in
parallel somewhere will take 62K back to to 47K.

rgds, sreten.

[LEVLHED]

from Bob's site regarding the Cinemag SUT:

Switchable for 1:16 (24 dB gain) or 1:30 (30 dB gain).

Into a standard 47k phono preamp, the effective input impedance of the low gain (1:16 ratio) is 184 ohms. At 1:30, the effective input impedance is 52 ohms.

He advises using the high (1:30) setting with the DL-103R.


So you are saying that increasing the preamp to 62k will change the impedance @ the cart from 52 to 67 ohms, correct?
Is this within the commonly used range specific to the DL-103r? I understand their official specs aren't actually the real-world ideal specs.

Thank you for your time. This is all relatively new to me so I'm trying to get it straight.

[sreten]

Hi,

Yes it will make the loading for the cartridge slightly higher and also
have a minor effect on the treble response, you could add the 220k
resistors across the output sockets of the SUT if your really picky,
personally I do not think it will make much difference, you'll be fine.

rgds, sreten.

[bastlnut]

hallo,

it is all relative and depends on what you are using.
each instance will be different so you really need to try the different combinations for yourself.
use the site on the link below to determine the additional resistors you would use to get the certain value you want.
http://www.calculatoredge.com/electroni ... sistor.htm

btw, why go to all this trouble for cheap cartridges?
good equipment deserve good cartridges.
move up and experiment, the cartirdge makes very big improvements in sound quality and low budget will not make you happy if sound quality is the goal.

regards,
bas

[LEVLHED]

Primary cart is the DL-103r w/the Cinemag SUT. That is what I'm using and I don't think that is cheap.

As a secondary option, I'd like to use an M97xE w/the Jico SAS (cheaper, but again not what I consider cheap).
This secondary cart is only an afterthought, given I have the option to tailor the pre accordingly...I already own the cart. Don't own the stylus yet.
If tailoring the pre to be "ideal" for the Shure is not detrimental to the use of the Primary cart (Denon DL-103R with SUT), then I should consider it. If it will be a detriment then I won't bother.
It is not trouble to have the PHONO-1 tailored to 62k at this point which is why I'm considering it. The only trouble I am having is understanding what these very specific values mean in relation to perceived sound on a DL-103R with a Cinemag SUT.

Trying out all possible combinations is not an option and is not what I'm asking.

The statement "loading for the cartridge slightly higher and also
have a minor effect on the treble response", in what way would it effect the treble response?

[sreten]

Is this within the commonly used range specific to the DL-103r?

Hi,

Yes, an active step up, if you ordered the MC version of your phono
stage would nearly always be 100R loading for x30 gain, no worries.

rgds, sreten.

[bastlnut]

hallo,

many use the Denon 103r and are happy with it,
others will replace the cantilever with something better and graduate from the conical diamond to an advanced shape.
i do not like the cartridge as it is not to my taste.
the M97xx is a cheap cartridge, even with a Jico stylus.
it is limited in ability and lacks detail, as i find the DL 103(r) to do as well.
using the same arm for both cartridges will not work.
the Denon likes a heavy arm, and the Shure prefers a light arm.
the Cinemag is a good SUT and is very sought after.
it is also a good match for the Denon cartridge and this has been a popular combination in Europe and elsewhere.

regards,
bas

[LEVLHED]

bastlnut, your opinions are noted.

My questions are very specific.
Are you able to answer any of them?

[bastlnut]

hallo,

if you have the Phono-1 set with a 100k ohm input, you can change the value to whichever you want to match either the Shure or the Denon/Cinemag.
use the link i posted above to find the value you need.
if you can have them customize it, then have them add loading sockets and supply loading plugs for this purpose.

regards,
bas

[LEVLHED]

Let me simplify my question...


A standard 47k load shows up as 52ohm at the DL-103R
Changing it to 62k will change the load @ the DL-103R to 67ohms.

Will the change from 52 to 67 ohms change the perceived sound of the 103r? In what way? To what degree?

Thank you.

[bastlnut]

hallo,

if you like the sound as it is, then it is a waste to change it for the sake of a cheap cartridge.

to directly answer your question,
if your system has enough resolution capability, then yes, you will hear the difference.
usually, raising the loading value will tilt the sound balance towrds the treble.

regards,
bas

[sreten]

Let me simplify my question...


A standard 47k load shows up as 52ohm at the DL-103R
Changing it to 62k will change the load @ the DL-103R to 67ohms.

Will the change from 52 to 67 ohms change the perceived
sound of the 103r? In what way? To what degree?

Thank you.

Hi,

The short answer is not much. the longer answer depends on how
well the transformer is matched to 47K in the first place, and whether
itis zobelled on the secondary side for 47k matching. If zobelled then
the change from 47K to 62K will have less effect then not zobelled.

It will slightly, and I mean slightly, change the treble balance.

As i said you can order the phono stage with 62K and fit 220K
to the SUT outputs so its completely a none issue, in reality
I do not think the 220k's are necessary but there is nothing
stopping you trying them.

Normal loading for a active MC stage would be 100 ohms.

The discussion about differences is essentially nonsense,
yes they are there, but not to any degree that matters.

rgds, sreten.

[Hanuman]

using the same arm for both cartridges will not work.
the Denon likes a heavy arm, and the Shure prefers a light arm.
the Cinemag is a good SUT and is very sought after.
it is also a good match for the Denon cartridge and this has been a popular combination in Europe and elsewhere.

While not exactly relevant to your original question (I think others in the thread are completely on top of that), I have to say that I agree completely with Bastlnut that the same tonearm couldn't be optimal with both of those particular cartridges. Your profile says that the deck is a Realistic LAB-500. This turntable really is built for a lightweight, light tracker such as the M97. I doubt you are getting the full potential of the 103R out of this. If you want to persevere with the 103R/Cinemag combo (and why not? I can see why many would like it. I have a 103R myself) I think that your upgrade thoughts should be towards a platform more friendly towards a mid/low-compliance moving coil - basically a heavier tonearm at the very least.