Wet playing revisited

[Ldg]

OK missan, chalmh I thought of a way to confirm whether there is altered damping for wet -v- dry playing. John Elison on VA posted a method for assessing damping ratio, zeta, by examining decay response to impulses and looking at the log decrement in the digitised waveform. John's method used stylus touchdown to generate the impulse. But in principle, one can use ticks/pops on a quiet/silent groove.

I shall put it on the things to do list !

[missan]

Exactly ld, that´s what I meant.
Bruel&Kjaer used a made scratch on silent grooves for this type of measurements. I have used pops with large amplitudes.
missan

[flavio81]

I simply think the improvement is due to better tracking (better following of the groove) helped by the lubrication provided by the fluid.

I had an image of an EMT newsletter about wet playing (i don't know if i included it here before?) but it said something like "wet playing is common when playing special test measurement records".

[missan]

I have done some dry tests, with different records, and looked at the lf level.
What I can see, the levels are quite similar. There seems to be no significant difference in level no matter what is played, if the records are not warped or off center.
So FWIW I think it very well could be so that the lf level depends on friction, and with lower friction the level will be lower, as I think ld pointed at.
missan

[Ldg]

A few days back I looked at some wet/dry files for big pops, so I could check waveforms for differences in damping. It's hard to say definitely because the recordings are of different records, but damping appears similar I would say, between wet and dry samples. I think the noise floor and lf difference could be associated with reduced friction somehow?

[flavio81]

I think the noise floor and lf difference could be associated with reduced friction somehow?

Come on my friend, it's pretty obvious... Let Occam's Razor shave it!!

Some dust/grit particles are not dislodged by the stylus when using dry play, and contribute to noise. When a fluid is present, the particles are dislodged by the stylus, thus they do not contribute to the noise floor.

[Ldg]

I think the noise floor and lf difference could be associated with reduced friction somehow?

Come on my friend, it's pretty obvious... Let Occam's Razor shave it!!

Some dust/grit particles are not dislodged by the stylus when using dry play, and contribute to noise. When a fluid is present, the particles are dislodged by the stylus, thus they do not contribute to the noise floor.

You are very likely right as to ticks and pops. But the general noise floor is also much lower in the test I did, and I don't think there's enough noise energy in ticks and pops alone to explain that difference.............

Subjectively, removing the ticks and pops is fantastic by itself. The noise floor is a surprise bonus...........i'm not complaining ! In subsequent dry play, the noise floor reverts to more or less the original level. But tick and pop improvement can be permanent !

[Klaus R.]

On this topic there are two first-hand accounts of listeners that have used Lenco-Clean wet play for years without ill effects, too.

I have used LencoClean for about 15 years, stopped playing wet when I bought my Shure about 10 years ago. Most of the records I got clean using IPA/distilled water + vacuuming, but some withstood that effort and also DiscoFilm didn't work, so I had to throw them away.

In Pisha, "Record cleaners revisited", Audio Magazine, May 1976, p.40 it is stated that the stabilizers and lubricants in the record material are leeched out by alcohol and even by distilled water.

Wet playing leaves a residue in the groove which generates very unpleasant noise when you play the records dry, but multiple cleaning sessions should be able to remove that residue. In view of Pisha I'm tempted to think that those records I threw away were damaged by the extensive exposure to LencoClean.

Klaus

[flavio81]

Wet playing leaves a residue in the groove which generates very unpleasant noise when you play the records dry

Correction, my dear friend: Lencoclean playing leaves residues. Not every kind of wet-play.

[flavio81]

ld measured 30% friction reduction using wet play, and also the potential to cure some sibilance problems!!

http://www.vinylengine.com/phpBB2/viewt ... 605#213605

[Ldg]

I wonder if there might be an additive to the wetting solution that improves the long term friction coefficient of dry vinyl-stylus contact, replacing any plastic additives that might either leach over time or perhaps be washed out by things like IPA ? Perhaps along the lines of polyvinyl alcohol............just thoughts !

[1200y3]

I don't know what PVA is, but it is in the Williamson record cleaner, a mask that dries and is then removed. PVA is a white powder that when boiled in water becomes liquid glue, which is then painted on, dries, and peeled. But when this mask is removed, the friction is reduced, but I am not sure for how long, or how many plays, or if it has different reactions with different vinyl from different years. But it makes the vinyl blacker, with much mor shine, and quieter than any othe cleaning product, except for possibly the originl NG formula, which must be removed as soon as it is applied.

[flavio81]

PVA= Polyvinyl alcohol.
PVA "dissolved in water" = common glue...

What you're describing is the "glue" cleaning method. Works pretty well!!

[Deccadong]

Hi flavio81,

I use 3:1 distilled water:isopropyl alcohol (lab grade) plus 1 drop per litre surfactant (colourless dishwasher rinse aid). Stored in glass containers. Afterward I rinse with distilled water.

I've never attempted wet playing of LP's having been warned by Garrott Bros that this is a good way to damage any stylus.

Isopropyl alcohol is now un-available in Australia due to it's illegal use by methylamphetamine manufacturers.
In desperation I started using vodka as a substitute. So far it works as well as isopropyl at 20% solution plus 5 drops of Ilford wetting agent and 5 of Windex. As with isopropyl I've been warned that vodka would damage my LP's. So far multiple cleanings on a VPI 16.2 vacuum cleaning machine havn't induced any damage I can hear on my system. I use a Garrott Bros 'Optim' MM with rugy cantilever & Fritz Geiger Stylus for stereo and a Garrott Bros re-build of a Decca 'London' for mono. If anyone can suggest a legal alternative to isopropyl though I'd be interested to try it.
I've tried commercially available solutions and can't hear any improvement over my own boozy recipe. Maybe in a few years all my LP's will turn to dust though?