Speaker Rumble! Please Help

[ttman57]

I recently decided to start buying vinyl records again. I have a JVC system from the '90's that is in my living room that I love dearly. The TT that came with it hasn't been used in years. I hooked it up in here, in my computer room with an old Kenwood amp and it plays super.

For the JVC system in my living room, I just bought and added a vintage Pioneer PL-514 TT with a Pickering cartridge. It seemed to sound okay, I think it was okay anyway, but I wanted to have a new needle on the TT so I decided to buy a brand new elliptical stylus for it. When I play any album, my speakers get this horrible rumble sound that can only be stopped when I kill my bass and turn the volume down. I thought I had blown woofers or something, but I tried cd's and there's no problem at all! Superb bass and no rumbling.

I am at a loss, and am kind of unhappy because I cannot play any albums with any volume and bass behind them.

Am I doing something wrong? Is there something wrong with my turntable?

All help is appreciated. If I need to give more information for an answer, I will try to add anything that is asked of me.

Please help.

[MonkeyBoy]

What TT do you have? Does it need lubricating? Have you checked the bearings? Also, on what sort of a base do you have the TT mounted? Some sort of base which can vibrate can inadvertantly contribute to the problem due to it's ability to convey vibrations from a variety of sources to the TT. Still, since you said that the TT hasn't been used in years, it seems a good bet that it needs oiling and maybe some motor/bearing refurbishment.

[Thomas_A]

Did it sound only with the new stylus? Check connections.

T

[sjam]

Hi,
What you discribed reminds me of feedback. Is the TT on, or near a speaker? Place it away from the speakers (or relocate the speakers)
Succes, Sam.

[analogaudio]

I agree this has the quality of being acoustic feedback, you need to minimise sound from the speaker reaching the cartridge stylus. As another poster pointed out the worst situation is to place the TT on the speaker, find a location as far as possible from the speaker. Support the TT on a wall shelf rather than the floor. Support the TT on something soft that absorbs vibration.

Even with the best efforts there will remain some acoustic feedback, it comes with the territory, a stylus is an acoustic pickup and a speaker is an acoustic generator, the gain of the preamp for RIAA playback which is normal includes a lot more gain at low frequencies, this makes sensitivity to low frequency rumbling greater.

My system is the same, I can supress but not eliminate the LF coupling, so for maximum playback quality I transfer the LP to CD with the volume turned right down, then I can play the CD at any level I like and with bass boost if I want.

I also use a low frequency rumble filter, between preamp and power amp, 30Hz 18dB per octave, and this reduces the LF sensitivity dramatically.

Ted

[ttman57]

Hi,
What you discribed reminds me of feedback. Is the TT on, or near a speaker? Place it away from the speakers (or relocate the speakers)
Succes, Sam.

There is some good information here, but this response seemed to fit the bill. I went with the easiest remedy first. Because of the limited space in this house, I have everything set up in an entertainment center, tv in the middle, receiver/amp. cd player, turntable on the right, vcr, satellite box, dvd player on the left, speakers on either side of the center.

Your response made me think that I may need to move the speaker that sits next to the TT. I simply moved the speaker 2 feet to the right, away from the entertainment center and the rumble is gone! That simple. I just don't know what to do now because that speaker blocks my front door! So I move it back when I finish playing an album. I need to figure something out.

When I bought this system back in the '90's, I can't recall even playing any albums on the TT that came with it. I thought the TT was a bit cheap, and I really didn't own any LP's any more. But at that time I had a different ent. center and the TT sat in the middle, which the TT I recently bought cannot do. It has to sit in the entertainment center on the left or right side, basically next to a big speaker. Plus, back then my system sat on a solid floor, whereas this old house has a bouncy wooden floor. Heck, we even have to tiptoe across the room because the floor will bounce and make the record skip.

Which brings up another point I read here. Will a piece of carpet under the TT help with our walking across the room as well as speaker vibration? Also, the speakers sit on this bouncy wooden floor, and I'm sure this isn't helping the situation. Is there anything I can put under the speakers to "cushion" the vibration, so to speak?

Anyway, I love playing LP's again. Being on a budget I can't invest too heavily in this, so my Pioneer TT that I just bought seems to fit the bill for me, along with the used record stores I have found. I'm just happy that I never let my JVC system go, or the smaller Kenwood system that I have. I came close, but they are both here to stay now.

Thanks for your help and advice. I knew this would be a helpful place to be. I'm glad I signed up!

[ttman57]

I was reading another thread about the Pioneer PL 518 turntable, I have been using the PL 514 for a month or so. It is the one that I have been having the terrible speaker rumble with.

I thought I had nailed the problem by moving the closest speaker away from the TT. That has, after I thought it had, not solved the rumble issue. As I stated in the first post here, to stop the rumble I have to either turn the volume way down, or turn it down and kill the bass. What fun is that if I can't PLAY my albums?

This person said that the PL 518 has a problem with rumble at higher volume. Mine, too. Is this a problem with these models of Pioneer that can't be remedied? I am slightly concerned now.

Is there something else I can try? I was going to slip a piece of carpet underneath and see what that does. My hardwood floor does shake like hell and I can feel the TT just vibrating like crazy. I do have some powerful speakers. I do have pads under each speaker to try to help with vibration, but it seems to help little, if at all.

But if the carpet piece doesn't work, then what? Am I stuck with a TT that has this rumble problem at higher volume?

I need help here. I am not an expert.

[paul401]

Hi,
as moving the speaker did give some improvement, I wonder if there are two issues here, acoustic feedback, as mentioned and possibly physical feedback/noise on the deck itself?

Have you tried playing a record/running the deck with the amp off, can you still feel/hear any vibration or nasty noises coming from the deck? If yes then there may be an issue with the bearing, motor or perhaps something physically 'catching' somewhere.

Taping a record, with the speakers off, is useful, as any 'rumble' from the recording will have originated from the turntable, (assuming tape-deck is all ok).

The following little trick comes with disclaimer and health warning;
Whilst playing a record/listening, amps on, if you (or a friend) carefully lift the turntable, an inch or two of the table you should hear any acoustic feedback stop or virtually disappear. It will help isolate/confirm the problem. Unless your friend wants the post of 'turntable holder' this is not along term answer!!

Isolation is the key. Start by raising the speakers off the floor, either on stands or spikes. Spikes are reasonably cheap and stands often found at yard/boot sales. The tweeters should be roughly level with your ears when seated in the 'listening chair'. Placing a paving slab under the speaker stands/spikes can also help, with wobbly floors. They can be painted to pretty them up!
A simple turntable isolating platform can be made from a piece of ply and squash balls, cut in half and fixed underneath, at each corner.

Anything that helps remove vibration will be of use. Even if the pioneer has a fault, (and that may be a simple fix, such as lubrication) any other deck will also suffer in performance. if not ideally situated.

A few thoughts/ideas, hope they may help.

Paul

[lanny]

First things first. If your speakers are sitting on, in, or even touching your cabinet, they must be moved. Half an inch will make a difference. The object is to break the chain of physical vibration.

Your best bet is placing the turntable on a wall-mounted shelf, preferably screwed into the studs of an outside wall. This will completely solve your footfall problem, too. The shelf doesn't have to be fancy or expensive, just sturdy enough to hold the weight. Another solution might be to move the turntable into another room, and extend the cables to reach.

[ttman57]

The picture below depicts the situation...



As you can see, I barely have any room. This speaker is the one I moved two feet to the right, which blocks my front door, but it seemed to help at first. But as i said, I'm still getting terrible rumble, when I thought that was no more.

What I did today was get a piece of plush carpet and slid it under the TT. I played Robin Trower's, Back It Up album, which has big bass and it seemed okay. But I really didn't kick it like this system can. No rumble. I need to try some more records.

I did turn down the speakers and felt no vibration whatsoever from the TT. And with the carpet, I barely felt anything at all, not like usual, when the TT is vibrating like crazy at higher volumes. SO, I'll try a couple more days and see how it goes.

As far as mounting this on the wall, it is not an option here. And I am thinking of giving the motor a couple of drops of oil, after all, it is an old table. One or more posts here mention the "bearing". What do you mean? Tell me about this bearing and I will fix that, too. Is it a bearing that the spindle sit on?

Again, all help is greatly appreciated, and I am paying attention to all of you.

Oh, please excuse the mess in the picture. This was taken several days ago, in the middle of cleaning. The whole area is nice and clean and all organized again. It looks a lot better.

[allanb]

Support the TT on a wall shelf rather than the floor. Support the TT on something soft that absorbs vibration.

Another possibility (the opposite, I suppose) is to support it on something massive to prevent vibration.

I had to use a built-in cabinet which was not completely rigid, although fairly strong. I used a piece of scrap marble (a broken table top) and got a stonemason to cut it to size; it stands on the cabinet, and and the TT stands on the marble. As far as I can tell, it works.

[ttman57]

Today I played my 180 gram LP of, Quadrophenia, and I didn't really hear any rumble. Carpet piece under the TT and speaker still moved two feet to the right. I notice a significant loss of vibration to the TT now. I'm assuming it's the carpet helping with that.

Trying some albums tomorrow, if I get the time. Not feeling too confident yet, but signs are encouraging.

[paul401]

Hi,

glad your getting some improvement, all of the suggestions given in the posts are worth considering, the stylus is tracing microscopic 'wiggles' in the grooves so airborne/structural vibrations really are the curse of vinyl replay.
Stands, spikes, cones etc. can all help, whilst they will 'tweak' a basically good system, they can all be equally useful when dealing with basic problems such as yours.
Solid and vibration free is the way to be!!

Is that a Beatles Magical Mystery Tour Bus model I can see ? Cool!

Paul