Project Debut II problems

[misterlizzard]

Hi,

I've been hearing from friends and reading about how much vinyl is better than CD. I borrowed a technics hi-fi like semi Automatic record player and plugged it into my Cambridge audio AZUR 540 Amp and was quite impressed with the sound but not massively overwhelmed. Dont get me wrong i dont mind the clicks and record ambience the thing that dissapointed me was the general tinniness of the sound. Anyway after reading promising reviews of the "project debut II" I decided to get one and bought one for £40 on ebay expecting razor sharp sounding music, again i was dissapointed, even though reviews ive read say the sound quality is better than a £400 nad cd player.

The problem i have is that when im playing an LP the quality of the sound starts off quite high quality then as the needle gets nearer to the centre of the record (the end of the side) the quality just goes really trebley and the s's sound like z's or sh's. Ive also noticed the arm has lots of horizontal movement. After reading various web pages i thought it was the antiskating weight which wasnt attached, so i put it on and set it up but it made no difference at all. I even took the player to a shop and the salesman told me everything is setup correctly and checked the needle and said it was all fine. Ive looked on google and only found two people with this same problem,

http://forum.ecoustics.com/bbs/messages/1/137591.html & http://forum.ecoustics.com/bbs/messages/1/138066.html

but these dont seem to have a solution. I am really dissapointed i have lots of rare old and new vinyl and this happens on EVERYTHING. I'm not a devout cd fan, i was open to the 'new medium of record' (records are so much cooler to buy from the shop) but am as yet unturned as listening to cd's is like the difference between mono and stereo or vhs and dvd (not a generalisation). Anyway do you have any idea as to what could be going wrong? I doubt this is a pre-amp problem as i have tried this on an internal pre-amp and and genuine project preamp and both act the same.

Anyway if anyone finds the time to reply thanks in advance.

cheers

[bastlnut]

hallo,

me thinks it is a problem with cartridge alignment.

The problem i have is that when im playing an LP the quality of the sound starts off quite high quality then as the needle gets nearer to the centre of the record (the end of the side) the quality just goes really trebley and the s's sound like z's or sh's.

this happens when the cartridge is mounted wrong. take a look in the library on this site and read what you can about cartridge set up, and download the appropriate alignment protracter to adjust the cartridge in tthe headshell.

good luck!

[danieldust]

I was going to say the same thing as bastlnut, but I was waiting for an expert to say it first. I wonder if your stereo shop guy knows what he is doing.

[audioorigami]

Ive also noticed the arm has lots of horizontal movement

hi guys

if the arm has lose bearings this may not help

i had 1 project turntable in for repair with the same problem as you
..the customer had fitted a cartridge on it that was to thin hieght wise...he had no adjustment left to change it
so check the arm tube is parrallel to the record and the trackin wieght is not to low

as well as the cartridge alingment

if all that fails then the diamond on the stylis is probabily worn or bent slightly


best wishes
j7

[JaS]

My first thought would be cartridge alignment and anti-skate settings as these can give the effect you hear. Secondly what cartridge are you using? Some of the very cheap AT cartridges can sound very bright and aggressive which won't help when tracking the end of a record where distortion can be a problem. If you've been brought up on digital then vinyl sound might not be your thing but 'tinniness' definately isn't normal; at the very least you should be getting more warmth, bass weight and improved 'solidity' to the music. Have you tried borrowing a different amplifier or speakers?

Regards,
JaS

[pauldenton]

G'day all, this may be an utterly silly suggestion, but I presume that all is set up correctly on the phono preamp side of things.

The comment about "trebly" sound suggests to me that perhaps a standard "unequalized" preamp input is being used, and the high frequency audio boost applied on recording is becoming evident.

It may be a silly suggestion, but it's worth checking that a proper equalized phono input is being used. Regards .

may not be that silly : the Cambridge audio AZUR 540 Amp's phono stage is an optional extra (at £20) ... it doesn't come with one as standard

[seppodave]

firstly, i have owned a project 1.2 and never again will i own one! look on ebay or the local rag and hold out for a good thorens or rega. also when i decided to change a cartridge, the leads were so brittle, i had to invest in a good soldering gun. and the old string and pulley crap is also a disadvantage. if you wish to hear vinyl as it should be, those cheapy debuts are not the way to go. good luck,dave

[misterlizzard]

Thanks all for the replies, I have looked into the alignment tools on the site but am unsure as for which one to get and what to adjust.

in response to some of the responses:

bastlnut wrote
me thinks it is a problem with cartridge alignment. so check the arm tube is parrallel to the record and the trackin wieght is not to low as well as the cartridge alingment.
if all that fails then the diamond on the stylis is probabily worn or bent slightly
thanks looked on the site at all the alignment tools, to be honest im not sure what to do with them and what to adjust, do i need to unscrew the head unit and re angle it or something.

audioorigami wrote
if the arm has lose bearings this may not help
how do i get to them? i s it wise for a newbie to fiddle with these things?

wrote:
The comment about "trebly" sound suggests to me that perhaps a standard "unequalized" preamp input is being used, and the high frequency audio boost applied on recording is becoming evident.
Ive tried the turntable on the internal cambridge preamp i had fitted to the amp AND on a genuine project pre-amp plugged into the AV/MD slot on the back. BOTH sound EXACTLY the same, and as i have said the quality lowers as the needle gets nearer to the centre.

Jas wrote
My first thought would be cartridge alignment and anti-skate settings as these can give the effect you hear. Secondly what cartridge are you using?
Im pretty sure the antiskating is setup correctly, the vartridge is the default ortofon one. the whole setup is the default parts for the project.

seppodave wrote:
firstly, i have owned a project 1.2 and never again will i own one! look on ebay or the local rag and hold out for a good thorens or rega. also when i decided to change a cartridge, the leads were so brittle, i had to invest in a good soldering gun. and the old string and pulley crap is also a disadvantage. if you wish to hear vinyl as it should be, those cheapy debuts are not the way to go. good luck,dave
I bought this one after reading really good reviews everywhere i am beginning to feel dissapointed i have to admit.

[bastlnut]

hey,

i don't know if you have an owners manual, here is a link.

http://www.project-audio.com/en/pdf/manualdebut.pdf

i couldn't find it in the library, and there IS a section about adjusting the cartridge. doesn't seem to say much. below you will see the technical data:

Technichal Data

Dust cover yes
Supplied counterweight cartridge weight 3,5 - 5,5g
Optional counterweight cartridge weight 6 - 9g
Fitted cartridge Ortofon OM 5E
Nominal speeds 33,33/45,11 r.p.m.
Speed variance ±0,8 %
Wow and flutter ±0,12 %
Signal to noise -65dB
Downforce range 10 - 30mN
Effective tonearm length 8,6 " (218,5mm)
Effective tonearm mass 9,5g
Overhang 18,5mm
Platter weight/diameter 1,3kg/280mm
Dimensions (lid open) 370 x 415 x 400mm
Dimensions (lid closed) 118 x 415 x 320mm
Weight with lid 5,5kg
Mains power supply 220 - 240V, 50 cycles
or 100 - 110V, 60 cycles
Power consumption 2W

1 thing that is interesting; the overhang is a high 18,5mm. the arm is only 218,5mm eff. length.
i do not think that a standard protractor will work as a reference for adjusting.

i took a look at a picture of the deck, and there doesn't seem to be any adjustment possible at the headshell. maybe it is the arm base that must be positioned for the correct overhang.
are there slits in the headshell where the cartridge is mounted? is there any kind of adjustment possible at the headshell?

maybe Seb can calculate a protractor for this deck.?.

the project turntable is a good budget deck with a better than average sound for its price range. it shouldn't be a disappointment. it should sound really good.
don't give up, persevere. believe me, it's more than worth it. especially with all the great vinyl you have!!

[Dave_2002]

Just to chuck my novice two penneth in...I concur with the above...the Pro-ject is a cracking deck for the money and has sold by the bucketload for a good few years now without much negative feedback at all.

I think you have to be realistic about the sound the deck will produce...it's never going to be better than a £400 NAD Cd player if CDs are all you've ever listened to. In fact it's going to sound crap. The trick with vinyl is to look beyond the superficial sound that any CD player produces and to ignore the odd crack and pop. Position yourself between your speakers and close your eyes; even a modest hi-fi (i.e. a Debut or a Planar etc) deck will involve you far more in the soundstage than a comparably priced CD player ever will. After all...only vinyl delivers all the waveform to the amplifier and hence all the sound.

However, it does sound like something is amiss with the Pro-ject. I think you need to take heed with the advice about the cartridge. The Pro-ject does have space to adjust the alignment i.e the two elongated slots at the end of the arm. It's hardly high science but if you push the cartridge back along the slots as far as it will go it should be "hard up" against the back of the slots. It should then be roughly aligned ish - play the record again and if it sounds better or worse you know it's the alignment. If it still sounds rubbish you know it's probably something else. Then I'd look to the cartridge - I'm not a fan of the Ortofon supplied by Pro-ject but it certainly shouldn't sound harsh and tinny with most music. Failing that I'm not sure...if it was the arm bearings then I think it would be mis-tracking consistently but I'm not too sure.

[misterlizzard]

thanks Dave & bastlnut,

your advice has been heeded.

Dave2002 wrote:
"The trick with vinyl is to look beyond the superficial sound that any CD player produces and to ignore the odd crack and pop."
I like the cracks and pops, the thing is ive read/heard/whatever that vinyl has unlimited bass and treble mine seems to have a sub-normal treble and bass limiter making everything sound like its sung in a tin room, the exact opposite of the 'warm vinyl sound'.

Just to give you further updates, on saturday i took the deck down to my local project dealer. I asked about setting the deck up and the man there had said for £15 theyd setup the whole thing. Theyve gt the potracters, spirit levels, everything. so after paying the £15 the man warm soaped watered the drive belt cause it was too loose, he'd replaced the anti-skating weight,adjusted the azimut, aligned the cartridge and in his words the sound should have been amazing. he took me through to the back room where there was a 10 grand amp speaker setup and rigged it up. the sound was still tinny/trebbley. he was quite startled and went and got a brand new needle from the cupboard, and it still sounded tinney/trebbley. he reckoned that due to underuse the cartridge had got damp/weathered and his best advice for me is to buy a brand new cartridge which he will fit for free (at around £30 to £80 - depending on quality). now being the extra cautious i am i written to project support themselves about this who in turn went through to henleydesigns in the UK. this is what they had to say:

____________________________________________________

Hi, your problem does sound more of a set up issue rather than a cartridge fault. A cartridge either works or it doesn't and the issues you are experiencing is not synonymous with problems normally experienced with cartridges. Unfortunately it is impossible for us to diagnose the cause of the fault by e-mail as we would need to examine the deck. If you are able to forward the unit to us then our engineers could look at it but there would be a cost involved depending on the time spent (1/2 hour £25 1 hour £50). It would be worth checking that the tracking weight is 1.5g (15 on the tracking weight dial).
____________________________________________________

in response to this i dont have a tracking weight dial, or at least i dont think i have, and £50 seems very expensive given that the player was only £40. I am considering getting a new cartridge as on paper this is like buying a new record player is it not? and i can do this for £30...

[bastlnut]

why don't you just send it to audioorigami? he is sympathetic to our cause, and he doesn't ask an arm and a leg for his work!

[Dave_2002]

Just a thought...what if the wires insidei.e. tonearm cable to phono plugs had been wired out of phase by a hungover Czech? Could explain the problem as it would be just like wiring your speakers up out of phase and what sound does that give??...tinny sound with no bass? Are the wires on the cartridge pins definitely wired correctly i.e. blue to blue pin etc etc

Actually, I'm not even sure the above would work but it seems kinda plausible??!

[misterlizzard]

well, I fear messing with it too much incase I break it. Considering selling it before it starts costing me an arm and a leg. One thing I thought i'd do was record an mp3 so you can hear the sound quality. Its some REM song (not my favourite band by any means) but this mp3 perfectly illustrates the s' problem and the symbols just sound the same(tinny). Maybe this is a problem with vinyl and im just being too fussy. this will need the volume putting up a bit as it was recorded at an in appropriate volume. Dont forget to put the speaker volume down after listening to the snippet as i have done and jumped out of my skin on the windows shut down sound.

Does this sound wrong to everyone or is this how vinyl should sound? the bass sounds roughly fine just the treble cuts off on the stipe's voice.

http://www.gspdesign.co.uk/test/record.mp3

any views on this?

ps. don't use any of the contact details on the above site it is a friends ftp account.

cheers