SL1200 vs. SP10/SME3009

by **Alec124c41** » 29 Oct 2009 18:34

I have a SME 2 improved with changeable headshell, on a SP-10D, wood plinth. It sounds very fine with high-compliance cartridges, such as the Grado Signature 8, Astatic MF-100, Grace F-9, Shure V-15 (your choice), and even a AT 12Sa. Mine has a bit more mass than yours, and sounds good with a Denon DL-110.
What effect would changing that MDF armboard to something else have on the sound?

Cheers,
Alec

by **anilva** » 30 Oct 2009 00:29

Thanks. I realize that DL-103 is not an option on Improved Series 2. May be the AT440 will sound better after a while (or my ears will get used to the sound and start liking).

Currently the loading is 47K/220pf.

May be I am short changing the SP-10 with a Series 2 and may be should have a SME V as Dave suggests, but SME V is orders of magnitude more expensive than a S2 improved. Dave - is Jelco 750D cheaper option, if I opt to change the tonearm?

Cheers.

by **analogous** » 30 Oct 2009 15:10

The DL-103 will not work on the SME V. The Jelco maybe.

I would look for a used Audio-Technica ATP12. It is better than any SME arm. It turn up faily regularly on eBay. And it usually seels for $100-200.

It is a professional arm (thus 10" and not 9"), so most people hate it. It does not have a queuing or anti-skating mechanism.

Garrard 301 + ATP12

by **LousyTourist** » 30 Oct 2009 15:49

Put an SME V on the SP-10 and live happily ever after.....

Dave

I guess that's a valid thought -- a $1000+ table and a $200 tonearm doesn't scream compatibility.

But I do have an SME III ($300 tonearm) with a $1000 MM cartridge on a TD124 to good effect

by **pivot** » 30 Oct 2009 16:26

LousyTourist wrote:I guess that's a valid thought -- a $1000+ table and a $200 tonearm doesn't scream compatibility.

But I do have an SME III ($300 tonearm) with a $1000 MM cartridge on a TD124 to good effect

Let me know where you get a SME II imp. for $200 I am in the market. Seriously - if you have a source for a II imp or unimp for $200 I am looking.

Have not seen a SME III go for under 350 lately unless it is flogged.
Back when I had the oppertunity to choose I picked a IIIs over a Blackwidow. Blackwidows seem to bring more on the used market now but sonically I would still pick the SME.

by **john guest** » 31 Oct 2009 00:27

Hi there ,

Put the Brass bearing on the 3009 S2 detachable , with the 1902/HWR heavy weight , which is around 168 Grams . Add a good headshell like the Sumiko HS-12 Universal Headshell and you have a perfect match for the Denon 103r . Add a extra 3Gram weight at the headshell for improved Bass , and the Resonate frequency comes in at 9Hz Vertical and 10 Hz horizontal using the Hi Fi News record . I have listened to a number of setups but the SME 3009 S2 setup like this, is nothing short of Fantastic with low tight bass and a mid range and treble to die for . The best thing is the unbelievable sound stage of actually being there live with the music ,which i think for the money this cartridge cannot be beaten .

Best Regards ,
John Guest .

by **VinylIsTheBest** » 31 Oct 2009 01:29

I have a SME 3009 II Improved arm on a Thorens TD-160 MKI with an Audio Technica AT440MLa and it sounds great!!

I also have a Technics SL-1650 with a Ortofon OM-20 on the stock arm.

The Thorens/SME Blows away the Technics in overall sound quality!

by **anilva** » 31 Oct 2009 04:07

john guest wrote:Hi there ,

Put the Brass bearing on the 3009 S2 detachable , with the 1902/HWR heavy weight , which is around 168 Grams . Add a good headshell like the Sumiko HS-12 Universal Headshell and you have a perfect match for the Denon 103r . Add a extra 3Gram weight at the headshell for improved Bass , and the Resonate frequency comes in at 9Hz Vertical and 10 Hz horizontal using the Hi Fi News record . I have listened to a number of setups but the SME 3009 S2 setup like this, is nothing short of Fantastic with low tight bass and a mid range and treble to die for . The best thing is the unbelievable sound stage of actually being there live with the music ,which i think for the money this cartridge cannot be beaten .

Best Regards ,
John Guest .

I would love to do what is suggested to be able to use a DL-103. But my arm is a non-detachable headshell model, which I think is lighter model than the detachable one.

Regards

by **bastlnut** » 31 Oct 2009 07:10

hallo,

the SP-10 screams for a high quality tonearm.
the SME 3009 is just not good enough and you have seen that it soesn't work well with the SP-10 and plinth,
try a SME IV if you cant afford the V.
the Jelco 750 is also on the lower end (lowest end) of what i would consider for the SP-10.
budget cartridges are not the way to go with this turntable either.

heavy tonearms for the Denon 103 cartridge, again a low budget cartridge.
and lighter tonearms for higher compliance cartridges.

regards,
bastlnut

by **anilva** » 31 Oct 2009 12:07

Bastlnut, I fully agree with you that SP-10 requires a high end tonearm to match. In which case the combination should give a much better quality of reproduction than my SL-1200 standard edition.

Presently with a decent tonearm like SME 3009 and a superior motor like SP-10 if the comination cannot match a standard SL-1200, then there is something to think about. If I have spend lot of money just to reach a SL-1200's level, may be there is something else going on.

One day I hope to afford a SME V and enjoy a level of reproduction way above my SL-1200. Till then my attempt would be to equal it at the very least.

Thanks.

by **Alec124c41** » 31 Oct 2009 16:15

The SME II Improved nondetachable is a very light arm, and wants a high-compliance cart to sound it's best. The AT440 is rated 10, not really high. The Shure could be a much better match. (Denon DL-110 is 13, V-15 about 25).
The AT440 might sound better on the 1200 arm, too. Swap, and both might sound better.

Cheers,
Alec

by **anilva** » 31 Oct 2009 20:58

Alec124c41 wrote:The SME II Improved nondetachable is a very light arm, and wants a high-compliance cart to sound it's best. The AT440 is rated 10, not really high. The Shure could be a much better match. (Denon DL-110 is 13, V-15 about 25).
The AT440 might sound better on the 1200 arm, too. Swap, and both might sound better.

Cheers,
Alec

Sound like a good idea. Will swap and try.

Cheers.

by **anilva** » 01 Nov 2009 07:16

To all those whose who helped me on this, a BIG thanks.

I have swapped the AT440 to SL-1200 and the Shure M97x to SP-10/SME and there is a remarkable improvement on both the systems. They have moved definitely one notch higher in terms of performance. I continue to maintain that SME 3009 is a big pain to mount cartridge as well as to get the right alignment and on the other hand it is a breeze on SL-1200.

I really like the AT440 for a very lively reproduction and the Shure 97 for the smooth and full bodied sound. Now I can 'LISTEN' to music instead of trying to find imperfections.

I am sure the itch will return to move to more refined tonearm/cartridge combinations at some point in time. Thanks once again to this forum. I just love VE. Without this, I would have wasted couple of years.

Cheers.
Anil

by **anilva** » 28 Dec 2009 03:38

I have recently changed the SL-1200's headshell to a Sumiko HS-12 and mounted a DL-103. It took me to add the additional weight supplied with SL-1200 to the countertweight to be able to balance the DL-103.Running at a tracking force of around 2.25gms.

Sounds wonderful with a very well rounded sound. Rich bass and clean treble.

One thing that is nagging me is whether I should load the DL-103 to 100 Ohms or 1000 ohms. I have read on the net and seems both are suggested. I can clearly see that 1000 ohms has more treble added to it, when I switch my MC preamp.

Which one is right according to Denon?

Cheers.

SL1200 vs. SP10/SME3009

Update on my SL-1200 setup