conical versus ellipticals

[Ldg]

From calcs on vinyl groove wall temp, discovered that getting heat away from contact area is one key stylus job, which was a surprise, but explains one reason why diamond is used, conducts heat so well. Anyone know if any metal alloy styli, or carbide tipped metal styli were ever made or tried ? Or any other material than gemstones ? Silica based gemstones don't conduct heat so well, for example. Advantages with metals are can be formed to precise and exotic shapes, polished easily and aligned with cantilever more accurately......for example ?

[flavio81]

From calcs on vinyl groove wall temp, discovered that getting heat away from contact area is one key stylus job,

This is still debated in other thread. It's not a fact.

which was a surprise, but explains one reason why diamond is used, conducts heat so well. Anyone know if any metal alloy styli, or carbide tipped metal styli were ever made or tried ? Or any other material than gemstones ?

Osmium, up to the 1950s.
A sapphire stylus lasts much more (50h total) than an osmium tip (5h??)
A diamond stylus last 10 times longer than sapphire!!

So diamond is king.

Silica based gemstones don't conduct heat so well, for example. Advantages with metals are can be formed to precise and exotic shapes, polished easily and aligned with cantilever more accurately......for example ?

Diamond can also be cut to precise and exotic shapes by using lasers. Look at pictures of the Micro Ridge-kind stylii.

[flavio81]

A micro-ridge and hyper-elliptical are extremely sensitive to compliance, which is also relative to cantilever mass.

??
I think you mean "extremely sensitive to VTA".
Compliance is directly set by the rubber cushion around the cantilever, not exactly by the cantilever mass.

A conical with a low mass cantilever can sound amazing. I did a lot of work figuring out how to remove cantilever haze, and discovered that without extreme factors, line contacts and micro-ridges are dangerous.

Dangerous?

Take Shure's V15 IV and then their berrillium designs, both quite impractical for the manufacturer. The berrillium was simply a way of avoiding extra work to perfect a standard cantilever.

So the low mass of berilium has nothing to do with it? Then technics was wrong to use pure boron as cantilever, since a "standard" (aluminium) one is the best? The fact that technics was able to achieve a frequency response up to 100KHz on his best boron-cantilever cartridges means nothing?

Then the V15 IV had a telescoped cantilever with a two piece bearing and it was famous for its conical stylus.

I thought it was famous for it's HE (Hyper Elliptical) stylus.

An MR can surely get some tight detail, but a great conical is the most inviting sound.

This is subjective and i bet that what you are trying to express is: "I prefer the even harmonic DISTORTION caused by the spherical stylus, it sounds more pleasing than the CLEAN, UNDISTORTED sound you can get with a more advanced stylus."

The best toss-up performance was the hyper-elliptical, but still required technical detailing (compliance, low size cantilever, damped cartridge body, nude stylus, etc).

All stylii benefit from improving on all those aspects, regardless of the stylus shape.

If you find a broken stylus but still attached (cracked) it will sound close to an MR. The cantilever mass is has been reduced on the stylus tip.

Great, so instead of spending $200 or more on an micro ridge stylus, let's get a damaged spherical, since it "sounds pretty close to a MR"...

[pivot]

A conical with a low mass cantilever can sound amazing. I did a lot of work figuring out how to remove cantilever haze, and discovered that without extreme factors, line contacts and micro-ridges are dangerous.

Dangerous?

Mirco ridge styli have been know to form gangs and go about the countyside stampeding the women and raping the cattle.

[lini]

Mirco ridge styli have been know to form gangs and go about the countyside stampeding the women and raping the cattle.

*lmao* Good one!

Grinnings from Munich!

Manfred / lini

[Ldg]

From calcs on vinyl groove wall temp, discovered that getting heat away from contact area is one key stylus job,

This is still debated in other thread. It's not a fact.

Yes, its not a fact. Where is the 'other thread', flavio81, I've missed it ? Would be interested to read/discuss.

Thanks, I'll do some searches on osmium tip stylii.

[rayr0683]

Great One....that post speaking of the dangers of MR stylus, and the bad beryllium cantilevers, and how inferior they are, along with the Shure V15IV being conical was one of the most bizarre posts Ive ever read. Imagine a newbie that read that as gospel truth. Glad some humor was added. Ray

A conical with a low mass cantilever can sound amazing. I did a lot of work figuring out how to remove cantilever haze, and discovered that without extreme factors, line contacts and micro-ridges are dangerous.

Dangerous?

Mirco ridge styli have been know to form gangs and go about the countyside stampeding the women and raping the cattle.

[registeredla]

A conical with a low mass cantilever can sound amazing. I did a lot of work figuring out how to remove cantilever haze, and discovered that without extreme factors, line contacts and micro-ridges are dangerous.

Dangerous?

Mirco ridge styli have been know to form gangs and go about the countyside stampeding the women and raping the cattle.

Now that I am totally loosing it I now have to worry about my cattle also Great thread guys, I am learning a lot

[1200y3]

I've got the cracked stylus and can show it to you. Berrylium is extremely strong, and does not break without quite a bit of force. Of course a broken or cracked stylus is extremely delicate. Cantilever mass has nothing to do with VTF in my statement above. Cantilever mass is the amount of cantilever in your sound (cantilever haze). Yes, MRs are very touchy on the set up side. VTA was Shure's priority when building the damper brush. I know what 2nd harmonic distortion is. A newbie will not ever understand good sound (I doubt most people even get to hear true treble brilliance with no haze at high levels-it is a total atmosphere). Shure's famous HE stylus came out in the early 70's. Shure was famous for many designs. The MR came out 10 years later. The original V15 IV is a radical diesign unlike any other V15 styli.

PRATICABLE AND PRACTICALITY ARE THE MAJOR FACTORS. KEEPING UP WITH THE COMPETITION REGULATES WHAT MATERIALS CAN BE USED. If you own a V15 MR and your stylus is finished, you either have to learn about styli, or purchase a Dynavector with the MR, because you will never get the original V15 sound back. The V15 5 did not have the sound of the 3 or 4, and the V15 VxMR was not even a qualifier for Shure's idea of performance. 30 years of listening to V15's will render you defenseless to any other cartridge under $900.

If you were around at the time, the V15's were well known to be one of the best carrtridges available, and had many "flavours" of styli.

The stylus output level (meaning how loud the stylus is) is a big factor in choice of materials. Grado cracks their styli.

Just a little off the topic, I now remembered what we could do with tube amps that we could not with solid state without 300v power supplies.

[Thomas_A]

I don' t get the message here...

[registeredla]

A newbie will not ever understand good sound.

Go easy there my friend.

Some of what you have said is very interesting. I have a few of the Shure carts, but most of the ones I listen to are Grado Statement Sonata's with nude eliptical styli. I know people that have been spinnig for years that have not refined their systems for better sound . They just like the old equipment and TT's. A few are still trying to figure out how to set up their TT's properly.

Don't judge newbies until you know them, doesn't mean that they do not know good sound. Some might have a better ear or equipment, or want to know what they need to get that sound. When I was a kid back in the 50's I grew up on $1500.00 tube equipment. That is why I am still in vinyl today because of that sound. I learned at a very young age what quality sound can be. You do not know how many newbies have heard great sound.

The job of this forum is to help them learn and grow. Face it we all learn something here daily if we want to listen to the group. I am not picking on you at all just reminding you of our purpose.

[pivot]

along with the Shure V15IV being conical was one of the most bizarre posts Ive ever read.

As far as the humor, don't give me much credit. I am paraphasing "Blazing Saddles"/Mel Brooks.

Odd thing is there were Shure replacment styli for some of the older Shure V15 that were conical. These replacments had a "G" in the model number (III-G and IV-G). I recall a bit of a cult following for them briefly in the 1970s and '80s.

Never mounted nor heard the "G" stylus in either my V15-III or IV. (wish I still had the bodies cause I would love the hear 'em with a Jico SAS...or just flog them on ePrey where they bring stupid money now)

I believe there was no "G" stylus for the V15-V.

[rayr0683]

Wow....Interesting. See you do learn something here everyday. I just did. I was not aware of the G stylus, which is why I assumed the IV conical bizarre. In all the vinyl forums I belong to, whenever I read about the IV I always seem to read most about the HE....but since there was a conical, and noone seems to mention them, at least in all the posts I have read. i wonder how many are floating around, possibly new?? And if they had a cult following, they must have had an interesting, or good sound, so they may be worth a try, if any show up NOS on Ebay, or in Classifieds.

At any rate, with whatever knowledge level I do have. I still am finding myself very confused by all of this. And in speaking with a Shure Designer, designer of the ML140HE...Les Watts....he indicated that berrylium was used for a reason, not to cut corners, but felt it was the best choice as cantilever material. In fact, he wanted to bring back a new cartridge, with beryllium cantilevers, he has a lab, and a laser cutter of some sort, and was gonna get beryllium sheets, that he said he could then make new cartridges from. This was all on Audio Karma. He was very nice and informative, and emailed me personally with all of his ideas, and the reasoning behind Shure's engineering designs back then, and when beryllium was discontinued. It was all interesting, and I posted his quotes in this forum back when we had spoke. Many members found it very interesting as well. Ray

along with the Shure V15IV being conical was one of the most bizarre posts Ive ever read.

As far as the humor, don't give me much credit. I am paraphasing "Blazing Saddles"/Mel Brooks.

Odd thing is there were Shure replacment styli for some of the older Shure V15 that were conical. These replacments had a "G" in the model number (III-G and IV-G). I recall a bit of a cult following for them briefly in the 1970s and '80s.

Never mounted nor heard the "G" stylus in either my V15-III or IV. (wish I still had the bodies cause I would love the hear 'em with a Jico SAS...or just flog them on ePrey where they bring stupid money now)

I believe there was no "G" stylus for the V15-V.

[1200y3]

The conicals were actually only of interst to professionals and archive people.

The idea of the break in the cantilever was only meant as an example of mass reduction. The massless tip is quite 3D. Obsessed stylus designers know where I'm at.

I understood berrylium is actually sprayed and not cut from stock. Berrylium is of course a non compromise metal for strength, durability, thinness, and very high resonance. That is relative only to the marketability of a stylus that better last 10 years. As well, the tiny MR stylus needs a strong bond that won't permit standard metals. Think about such a stiff substance riding on your vinyl. I doubt Shure needs to be in the cartridge race anymore. But if people are selling NOS VN 5MRs for $500, they may want to consider that.

Back to what I said about the V15's priceless, what they can't perform in weightless sonics, they make up for it in their trackability.