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Postby bastlnut » 23 Aug 2009 11:01

hallo,

http://cgi.ebay.com/THORENS-TD-124-VINT ... 500wt_1182

http://cgi.ebay.com/Garrard-Model-301-T ... 500wt_1182

http://cgi.ebay.com/Technics-SP-10-SP10 ... 035wt_1167

all the classic turntables above are less than the $1400 mentioned and no where near the outrageous claims made by others.

i do some work on turntables and sell some items, but i do not offer my sevices in my posts.
i do not promote myself as a dealer in any way.
J7 doesn't do much personal promotion either, he gets recommended by others here often.

i am not, and have never said that the SL1200 is a bad turntable.
i just point out its weak points and suggest options for the bespoken budget.
if one has his or her heart set on a SL 1200 of whatever flavour, then just get it.
i never go personal with any comments of mine other than pointing out that the self promoting being done here is out of place.
the healthy criticism of the press that i exersize is legit, is also well documented with histories of scandal and is logical based of the working paramaters of the business.
the magazines want to sell advertising space and turn as large a profit as possible.
the term.....'bite the hand that feeds you' ......comes to mind here.

regards,
bastlnut

p.s.
Dave, i too like your wit.
i always liked your posts when you were giving advise and enjoyed your approach to a problem.
it is your plugging of your website and services that i have a problem with.
there are no hard feelings here.
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Postby futurproof » 23 Aug 2009 12:04

Isn't this 'world hifi press' that we're all supposed to believe the same 'world hifi press' that not very long ago rubbished the Technics SL1200 and direct drive turntables in general.
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Postby Tolstoi » 23 Aug 2009 12:26

Well I have a SL-1210 for over a year now and I must say that I never had so much fun, oh's and ah's while listening to music. Mine is unmodded except that I set it up on a large and thick damping mat.

After using it with a Denon DL-110 I'm now in love with the Pickering XV-15 and you can't imagine how good it sounds.

After owning a Thorens TD-280, a Thorens TD-160, a Denon DP-47F I know that I'll stick to the SL-1210. You don't have to worry about speed accuracy. The removable headshell is great and I do not want to miss it as well as the "on the fly" VTA adjustment as I just experienced this weekend.

If you want a reliable, good sounding, easy to maintain deck then go for the 1210 or 1200. Keep the modding for later if you still want or need it.

If you go for older TT's don't forget that some need tweaking. Often it begins with the plinth or another tonearm. All those things cost money too and I've seen that with my Thorens TD-160.

Cheers

Joerg
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Postby alfonso » 23 Aug 2009 12:44

Tolstoi wrote:Well I have a SL-1210 for over a year now and I must say that I never had so much fun, oh's and ah's while listening to music. Mine is unmodded except that I set it up on a large and thick damping mat.

After using it with a Denon DL-110 I'm now in love with the Pickering XV-15 and you can't imagine how good it sounds.

After owning a Thorens TD-280, a Thorens TD-160, a Denon DP-47F I know that I'll stick to the SL-1210. You don't have to worry about speed accuracy. The removable headshell is great and I do not want to miss it as well as the "on the fly" VTA adjustment as I just experienced this weekend.

If you want a reliable, good sounding, easy to maintain deck then go for the 1210 or 1200. Keep the modding for later if you still want or need it.

If you go for older TT's don't forget that some need tweaking. Often it begins with the plinth or another tonearm. All those things cost money too and I've seen that with my Thorens TD-160.

Cheers

Joerg





Hi Tolstoi
You said that you have good sound with your pickering xv15....
i have a pickering xv15 625e,but i'm running it with a cheap plastic turntable....
i found good channel separation,great bass,natural sound but too warm sound on the treble (on that crappy turntable even an audio technica at91 sounds brighter)
Unfortunately i found no review of this cartridge on the net...was even thinking about getting an audio technica at120...
How about you?
How is,according to you,the sound of the pickering?Is particularly warm?
And compared to the denon?
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Postby alfonso » 23 Aug 2009 14:14

bastlnut wrote:hallo,

http://cgi.ebay.com/THORENS-TD-124-VINT ... 500wt_1182

http://cgi.ebay.com/Garrard-Model-301-T ... 500wt_1182

http://cgi.ebay.com/Technics-SP-10-SP10 ... 035wt_1167

all the classic turntables above are less than the $1400 mentioned and no where near the outrageous claims made by others.

i do some work on turntables and sell some items, but i do not offer my sevices in my posts.
i do not promote myself as a dealer in any way.
J7 doesn't do much personal promotion either, he gets recommended by others here often.

i am not, and have never said that the SL1200 is a bad turntable.
i just point out its weak points and suggest options for the bespoken budget.
if one has his or her heart set on a SL 1200 of whatever flavour, then just get it.
i never go personal with any comments of mine other than pointing out that the self promoting being done here is out of place.
the healthy criticism of the press that i exersize is legit, is also well documented with histories of scandal and is logical based of the working paramaters of the business.
the magazines want to sell advertising space and turn as large a profit as possible.
the term.....'bite the hand that feeds you' ......comes to mind here.

regards,
bastlnut

p.s.
Dave, i too like your wit.
i always liked your posts when you were giving advise and enjoyed your approach to a problem.
it is your plugging of your website and services that i have a problem with.
there are no hard feelings here.




bastlnut
those turntables are very old and even if they still work
1 they need good service (very expensive)
2 need a plinth
3 need a tonearm
4 the shipping from usa is very expensive

So if you think that you'll have that sound for 1400$ you're wrong.
A good cleaning and service + plinth + good tonearm + the turntable itself will cost you about 4000$ at least. And without cartridge.

And even if you were right what's the point?
An sl1200 isn't perfect cause a thorens 124 is better?
Is a rega p2/3 better than a thorens 124?
Is a project perspective better than a garrard 401?

Obviously not,but these are still considered Hi end turntables
Then you should say:"for that money i wouldn't go for a new nowadays turntable but i'd look for a very old one"
But you should apply this rule for every turntable in the price range of the sl1200.
That's your mistake
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Postby Tolstoi » 23 Aug 2009 17:20

Hi Alfonso,
I guess it depends on the setup. The Pickering sounds very full bodied - a sound I like. I don't miss anything regarding the high frequencies. I have open baffle speakers equipped with an 15" coaxial. Perhaps that's on of the factors that make the Pickering sound good.
As for the DL-110 I believe it's a little better in the high frequencies but for me it sounds too thin here in my setup. I don't miss any details with the Denon or the Pickering but as I mentioned the XV-15 is more fun.

Cheers

Joerg
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Postby shhh...listen » 23 Aug 2009 23:54

My two cents.
As Alfonso points out those tables don't compare well, and I agree. The Thorens was the only complete turntable. The SP10 and Garrard 301 both need tonearms and the 301 needs a plinth.
While I am a little surprised that the SP10 didn't sell, it was $600 the other tables were $900.
A brand new SL1200 mk2 cost $550. That 40% less than the $900 tables.
Will those tables sound 40% better? I think NOT.
I believe the SL1200mk2 is somewhere at the top of the bell curve. You gotta spend lots more to get slightly better sound.
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Postby herculepirate » 24 Aug 2009 10:16

First of all ... Thank you for all the replies...

I don't mind Dave and his reference to his mods...

Also I don't really trust the reviewers since I bought the Krell 400Xi and sounded terrible....

A few similarities in the LINK DELETED and KAB.... mostly the Mat and the Power Supply here...

But the difference in approach I see is in the ToneArm...
KAB: the tone arm is perfect except for the fluid dampener... Gimble system being the best and few other attempt this...
LINK DELETED: The Tone Arm is s**t and needs replacement.... This approach surprises me because you have effectively added 500 USD with another 2000 USD or so tone arm and say that the Tone Arm is worst component and the change gets you to new height...
My question .... There then will be 2500 USD Turntable that may perform better than adding a ToneArm.

KAB says that table is acosutically dead and the only most important thing in the whole set up would be your Cartridge.

I have heard a ClearAudio TT with the ClearAudio Symphony Cartridge which was amazing for me....
My question here is that .... If the Technics is perfect as it is....with only the KAB Modifications...will I get the same tone as the ClearAudio I heard...

Also my initial question was if a modded Technics would match another STOCK TT for similar modded price of $1400...no point in getting another TT and then again spend money on mods over the stock...the question then repeats itself....

What about this too...
http://www.furious.com/perfect/vinyl68.html



I didn't in no way mean the thread to go bitter....

Regards

Alwyn
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Postby herculepirate » 20 Sep 2009 01:39

Hi,

I have a question for you....to both the guys who do support the Technics as good quality TT....

I have a 24bit 96 kHz recording in LossLess Audio of a Toto IV album from a 180gm Vinyl which was recorded using a....

Technics SL-1200MK2 Turntable w/ KAB Fluid Damping / Technics SL-1200MK2 w/ Jelco ToneArm modded by .... both w/ outboard power supply

Ortofon 2M Black cartridge

Pro-Ject Tube Box SE II Preamp

Can this define the sound of a Technics Modded ?

I understand that this is then dependent on the rest of the system ....
Will this give me an idea of the Tone of the Technics ??

Regards

HP
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Postby analogaudio » 20 Sep 2009 02:36

The truth is, crazy as it may seem, that the proof of the pudding is in the eating and the truth is everyday people are using SL-1200MK2s for hifi and enjoying the result which is fabulous sound.

While you are debating spending $xxxx spend $250 on an ebay used-for-hifi-only SL1200MK2 and set it up with a $100 cartridge. You may find that $1500 fantasy sound is never worth it after all because what you hear everyday is so fine and cost so little. On the otherhand if you hate it you can sell it again for what you paid, you will lose only the shipping.

Ted

I believe people outside the North America do not have this advantage, cheap 1200s and cheap UPS shipping (typically $30).
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Postby banerjba » 21 Sep 2009 03:45

herculepirate wrote:Hi,


Technics SL-1200MK2 Turntable w/ KAB Fluid Damping / Technics SL-1200MK2 w/ Jelco ToneArm modded by .... both w/ outboard power supply

HP


I am confused. This phrase appears to mention 2 tables, the KAB one with fluid damped arm and the UK modded one with Jelco.

BTW : are you the one they mention in the HiFi World magazine ( etc?).
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Postby herculepirate » 21 Sep 2009 07:16

Yes.
My Point is that.... Will a 24 b 96 khz recording show you the tonality of the TT/cartridge/phono set up.....
Since I have not heard a Technics TT.... Needed to make a decision with respect to the sound.
regards

HP
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Postby banerjba » 21 Sep 2009 21:31

Thanks Dave. Too bad I don't live in the UK!!! Not sure anyone does mods like that in Canada. None of the hifi stores carry the 1200 - just DJ and broadcast supply stores.


herculepirate: after owning something like 20 different tables over the years including many of the famous UK audiophile ones, I can honestly say I enjoy the sound of my 1200 more than most of them.

Only the LP12 and Rega P5 in my collection have been better. My LP12 though was too bouncy, had no 45 and with its Akito arm could not track anything worth a damn. My $200 plastic Technics bd20d was better.

The sound of the 1200 has great drive and detail. The top end can get a bit ragged with a really cheap cart but good modern designs like Ortofon 2M red should be great. It is not as warm or big sounding as my Rega P5 but much more substantial than a low-mid grade Pro-ject or Clearaudio IMO. It is much more detailed than my P5/TTPSU/Elyse2 although scale of the instruments is not portrayed as convincingly.

I would love to hear some of the decks done up by Dave and others. If the stock deck is this good, a proper arm, cart and power supply are likely to yield top flight results.

In my nearly 3 decades as an audiophile, I started with direct drive, abandoned it because I was told it was crap, and returned only a few months ago. DD rules.

Get a used 1200 and if you do not like it sell it - you cannot lose money on these. Absolute must is a better mat (even a cheap thin one over the rubber one helps) or maybe one of the high tech ones mentioned here.
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Postby ssportclay » 23 Sep 2009 19:43

herculepirate wrote:Yes.
My Point is that.... Will a 24 b 96 khz recording show you the tonality of the TT/cartridge/phono set up.....
Since I have not heard a Technics TT.... Needed to make a decision with respect to the sound.
regards

HP


The digital recordings should give you some idea of the sound depending on your equipment. Listening to turntables is complicated and different people have different ideas as to what sounds good. For example, I have a Thorens TD-160 that I bought new in the 70s which is still in excellent condition. My Technics 1200 with a KABUSA power supply and Origin Live Silver tonearm blows the Thorens table into the weeds. They are not really close. The Vinyl Anarchist seems to like prefer the stock Thorens. I believe the reasons for the poor showing of the Thorens are the stock TP-16 tonearm and the rotten old tonearm wiring used back then. If I were to mount the Silver tonearm onto the Thorens, it would probably be a close call. The KABUSA tonearm Mods would no doubt improve the sound but you have to keep in mind that this tonearm is a very old and obsolete design. In other words, the Mods will reduce the tonearm's negatives but they will bring nothing new to the table. A new tonearm change on the other hand will extract more detail from the recordings and do so with less coloration regardless of what is done to the stock tonearm.
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