How Good Is Garrard 301

[boon54]

Hello to all Garrard 301 owners - can you share your experiences with your Garrard 301:

1. How is your Garrard 301 sound quality compare to any new model TT in the market costing around $5-10K? eg. VPI, Rega, Clearaudio, Thoren and etc.

2. How reliable is the Garrard 301?
3. What is the accuracy of the speed when playing?
4. Which is the most compatible tonearm and cartridge for this TT?

Thanks.

[iain42]

My experience is not as vast as most of those on these forums. I got mine for almost free so my rebuild is most of the money I have in mine. After I first got it I plugged it in and saw sparks. It smelled burnt but with help of josephazannieri I got it running again. These tables are very very tough and reliable. The thing that strikes me is how fast it gets up to speed which is almost instantaneous you turn it on and bang it is right there at 33 45 or 78. It sounds very respectable as is but I am taking it a couple steps farther. I will be installing a Jelco 12 inch tonearm with Ortofon cartridge on my new plinth which I am really psyched to get it finished.

A good friend who has owned more turntables than anyone I know has been very surprised at the Garrard quality. He wasvery skeptical. We usually hang out on Sundays to listen to tunes and last week he just shook his head at it saying it shouldn't sound that good with a vintage tonearm and cartridge. A Garrard TPA-12 and Shure cart. He is very interested to see what a modern 12 inch tonearm and ortofon cart can do. I'll be reporting back in detail on the completion of this project.

[folkishienne]

The sound of a well serviced and correctly mounted 301 is very different to a belt drive TT (SME for example) The old theory that idlers produce more rumble than a belt drives (SME, Linn etc) is true. With that said the torque the massive motor of the 301 boasts brings with it a slam, energy and musicality that very few modern TT's can match. The 301 is not a quiet turntable, the chassis, idler and bearing are all very 'live' and do fly in the face of todays accepted knowledge of what makes a turntable 'good'. This definition is however in the ear of the beholder and the plus points the 301 offers are narcotic to some (Myself included) A dry direct comparison is of course possible, measurements of wow, flutter and rumble could be compared between 301's and modern counterparts however for those afflicted with nostalgia, an appreciation for 'artifact' and a love of musicality a comparison is almost impossible. Which is best a fully restored E-Type Jag or it's modern equivalent?

[iain42]

I have read allot about 301's and other idlers being noisy but I haven't experienced this issue with mine. The horn speakers I'm using are about 107db1w1m which are very very revealing of upstream equipment. There is no audible rumble or vibration or noise coming from the speaker. I do have a friend with a Thorens 124 that is very noisy and it is driving him crazy trying to stop it. What makes one idler silent and another noisy?

[folkishienne]

The cheapest way to exemplify the noise made by an idler drive is to buy a £15 stethoscope. Place the stethoscope on any point of the 301's chassis and turn the unit on, you will hear a very loud 'rumbling noise' sometimes accompanied with a cyclical thud (This is a flat on the idler wheel) a repetitive scratching noise may be a problem with the main bearing. Place the same stethoscope on an LP12 for example and you will hear much less noise. With all of that said their are some major plus points to having a huge motor mounted on a TT, as described in my previous post above.

The main rumble inducing factors on the 301 are.

1) The idler wheel. either buckled or the bushings are out of shape, or the idler housings grommets are dry and or deformed.
2) The main spindle bearing, poorly lubricated, damaged bushings and or spindle. Large friction potential from the spindle onto the 'flat' bearing. Even the type of oil used is a factor here.
3) Dirty platter rim.
....The list goes on


Another big factor contributing to several types of noise is the motor which is suspended on springs with a little bit of rubber to dampen the noise....As well as poorly maintained motors which can cause several differing types of 'noise'.

The plinth is all important here in terms of dissipating some of the noise from the motor. Use the stethoscope to discover which plinth dampens the sound best. Skeletals with the top plate suspended on squash balls are far noisier than high mass plinths such as Slate or granite etc.


The platter is also just about as far from inert as an alloy can manage. Almost purpose built to transfer any of the noisy factors listed above to the cartridge during play. The cart is of course a 'microphone' for the information on the records grooves but also any other type of noise the TT itself is generating'.

With all of that said I love 301's and have been collecting and restoring than for over 10 years. I am currently working on several standardised reproducible methods for measuring noise with the aim of dispelling many of the old 'myths'.

Comparison plinths, spindles, platters will all be tested and the findings displayed on a web site that is currently under construction. The stethoscope methods described above is just a simple test, it is not in and of itself quantifiable or definitive - It simply gives you a chance to 'hear the difference'. The methods that will be applied to the tests I am working on in conjunction with ' most certainly will be scientifically measurable.

If you think about it the technology available to the Garrard engineers to measure noise at the time of production were basic to say the very least.
As exemplified here:



Today transferable technology does enable far more thorough measurements to be made.

[folkishienne]

Ah Ha! Hi Dave, I would like to take this opportunity to clearly state that Dave's technical know how and fantastic lab are critical in the work being undertaken in comparing different turntables and components. The results of which will be collated on a joint web site in the near future...

[josephazannieri]

Yo Boon54:

Your request is a tall order. I don't have any experience with modern expensive turntables that are in the league that you are trying to compare. BUT, I have an old (1954) Garrard 301. It currently carries 2 arms- a Thorens TP 13A (Shure M44) and a Grace G-707 (Shure V-15 IV). I also have a Thorens TD 150 ABII with a Linn Basik LVX mounted ( Shure V-15 VMR). Both are in constant use. Of course there are differences that are attributable to differences in cartridges and arms.

The Garrard has a certain basic low frequency rumble level that is just always there. It is not annoying, but it is noticeable when the volume is way up in silent passages. That basic rumble level is not present with the belt drive Thorens. On the Thorens I can hear the difference between the residual rumble levels that are recorded into most records from record to record. I can't on the Garrard. My room has a bump in it about 40 Hz, which makes it into rumble central. The Garrard is more sensitive to acoustic feedback than the Thorens, and they are both on the same wall mount shelf. The Garrard has speed adjustment, which the Thorens doesn't have, and it plays 78's which the Thorens won't do.

The Garrard is very sensitive to mounting. When I got it, it was in one of those curvy "vintage" Garrard plinths with a sprung mounting plate. It rumbled like a subway. I pressed down on the sprung motor board while playing, and the minute I had the board down against the base, the rumble went away. I put in into a more massive cheap plinth that was still way less than ideal and that helped a lot. Thorens is way less sensitive. (Although there was a time when I had the Thorens on a bad floor mounted shelf when it was very sensitive to footfalls and would jump out of the groves when I walked around.)

Both units have been very reliable. I have had the Thorens since 1971, and the Garrard since 1974. Niether has ever stopped running, though both have required work. I have replaced belts on the Thorens, and I have had to take the motor on the Garrard apart and clean and lubricate the bearings. I expect that I could make major investments in both (bearings and idler wheels) and probably have noticeable improvements in both, but for my purposes I have reached the point of diminishing returns. And, the Garrard looks really vintage cool in that battleship grey. Still trying to build a really good plinth.

I use the Garrard mostly for rock and roll and jazz Lp's and 45's, and of course, 78's. I attribute this primarily to the differences between the sound of the V-15 V on the Thorens, and the carts on the Garrard. I use the Thorens for classical and art music LP's. I attribute this to the smoother, slightly more detailed sound of the cart on the Thorens, and to the lower rumble levels. I am not as sensitive to the mystical "PRAT" qualities as some others. But, the Garrard does bang harder, particularly with the M44.

I hope this comparison helps. I drag race these units often. I realize it's not an engineering comparison, but it gives you an idea of the differences in listening quality and general user experience, at least for this crude old geezer.

Finally, there is one major advantage to a new expensive turntable. It will have a warranty. If it doesn't work, you can take it back to the dealer and complain. You may not be able to do this with your high-buck "restored" Garrard, particularly if you did the work yourself.

May we all reach audio nirvana! And thanks to Iain for his kind words.

Joe Z.

[iain42]

Well I'll consider myself very lucky again because with the volume jacked during quiet passages I get no noise no rumble. If I have to use a stethoscope to hear this noise than I am not going to worry about it. For now I'll just worry about the audible problems.

[analogous]

1. How is your Garrard 301 sound quality compare to any new model TT in the market costing around $5-10K? eg. VPI, Rega, Clearaudio, Thoren and etc.

2. How reliable is the Garrard 301?
3. What is the accuracy of the speed when playing?
4. Which is the most compatible tonearm and cartridge for this TT?

Thanks.

1. As others have said, it doesn't. It is a very different animal.
2. The deck is half a century old. You do not get much more reliable than that.
3. Accuracy depends on the power. Dedicated power should be considered.
4. I like this arm (Ortofon)

[J.D.]

The sound of a well serviced and correctly mounted 301 is very different to a belt drive TT.

Agree. This is the fundamental, if undramatic, answer to the orig poster's question. The two playback methods have quite different successes & drawbacks.

Working your way around from the drawback side, I'd say that the choice comes down to which methodology (add in direct drive, too) has the least noticeable drawbacks, and that cuts thru a lot of the peripheral discussion.

To be honest, if it were a case of a carte-blanche menu, I'd have the pace & drive of the garrard, the tone of the beltdrive, the inky-black silences in-between of the direct drive.

But given the situation --- beltdrive's slushy time & light smear is noticeable, directdrive's greyish, once-removed quality is noticeable ----- I'd go with the idler-drive garrard whose steady-state noise floor is largely un-noticeable in a deck that is up to maintenance spec.

Oh, and I'd add to the rationale for the garrard being not just the larger, higher torque (somewhat, as compared to the little ac-sync type) motor, but the ' the 'closely coupled' aspect of the intermediate drive wheel. Which manages to keep speed control under constant check, much like an open-reel tape mech, while maintaining the relentless drive of the Ac induction motor.

Arm and cartridge ? Well, I've tried Graham, Sme 3012/I and Sme 3012/R and I like the Sme 'R' for everyday use with Spu or Koetsu, and the Sme 3012/I with Koetsu.

Comparing to modern tables, again : very different sort of transport.
For me, strictly from listening, once I'd restored and plinthed my 1956 Schedule One properly, it was easy to compare sound quality to the Vpi Aries I had been using.
Ciao, Aries.

[chariot]

Hello to all Garrard 301 owners - can you share your experiences with your Garrard 301:

1. How is your Garrard 301 sound quality compare to any new model TT in the market costing around $5-10K? eg. VPI, Rega, Clearaudio, Thoren and etc.

2. How reliable is the Garrard 301?
3. What is the accuracy of the speed when playing?
4. Which is the most compatible tonearm and cartridge for this TT?

Thanks.

British engineering at its worst; get yourself a Technics SP10 Mk II.

[iain42]

Hello to all Garrard 301 owners - can you share your experiences with your Garrard 301:

1. How is your Garrard 301 sound quality compare to any new model TT in the market costing around $5-10K? eg. VPI, Rega, Clearaudio, Thoren and etc.

2. How reliable is the Garrard 301?
3. What is the accuracy of the speed when playing?
4. Which is the most compatible tonearm and cartridge for this TT?

Thanks.

British engineering at its worst; get yourself a Technics SP10 Mk II.

Worst? Can't disagree with you more on that one.

SP10 is awesome but it sure is fugly.

[Blue Angel]

Hello to all Garrard 301 owners - can you share your experiences with your Garrard 301:

1. How is your Garrard 301 sound quality compare to any new model TT in the market costing around $5-10K? eg. VPI, Rega, Clearaudio, Thoren and etc.

2. How reliable is the Garrard 301?
3. What is the accuracy of the speed when playing?
4. Which is the most compatible tonearm and cartridge for this TT?

Thanks.

British engineering at its worst; get yourself a Technics SP10 Mk II.

More like South African butchery at its best, I would say.

blue angel

[josephazannieri]

Yo again, Boon54:

I understand why chariot is not particularly impresed with British engineering on this one. Back in June, he, Blue, and I were in a giant thrash over the motor in his 401, which was shaking like Long Tall Sally. We tried just about everything. It finally came down to a motor that appears to be grossly worn, with loose bushings that were mounted loosely in the clamshell motor halves. It may be that his motor will need to be replaced, or maybe the bushings and bushing mounts, and it will be a giant clusterbleep for him. I do not envy him his agony, since he probably paid lots of money for his 401, and he now has a nonworking unit. (I got my gray 301 in 1974 for almost nothing, and it has worked fine generally for the 35 years I have had it.)

Chariot got into the worst kind of problems that you can have when you buy anything that is 40 or 50 years old with no way to know the history. I am actually on both sides of this. British engineers often do things in ways that appear to me to be bass ackwards. A buddy of mine, who worked on British cars said, "If 3/8 is just enough, you can count on a British engineer to use 5/16."

That said, my experience with the varous Garrards that I have run across, including my 301, a Type A, a Type T, an Autoslim, an Autoslim P, and an RC121 and a couple of RC88's, is that they are generally reliable, and really tough as nails and hard to break. The 301 is no pansy machine. And 301's will soldier on eternally, despite wear and abuse that will kill some others.

However, if you get one that fails seriously, like chariot did, it's a major overhaul, since everything will probably need work. Blue does that stuff, and I am sure that he will agree with that proposition. And Blue has very high standards for the work he does. But all I have had to do with mine, other than some general lubrication is that I did have to split the motor about 20 years ago and clean and lubricate the bearings. But I am not super fussy about exact spec rebuilds.

And that's in the for what it's worth department. If you want to buy a used one and pay top dollar for it, you will have to scope it out throughly, since it will probably need at least some work, and maybe it will need a lot if you want it to meet original spec. You could always pay the big bucks for a Loricraft job, and then you will have a known good one. But that's $$$$$$$$$$!

Good luck again!

Joe Z.