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The New Vpi Classic

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Postby Ren » 06 Jun 2009 20:27

No, I haven't checked w\ VPI re the stainless steel arm wand.

The MD customer svc rep I spoke to said that "they" had decided to make the stainless steel wand standard once production really got underway. I assumed that he meant VPI when he said "they". But I really didn't ask. He might have meant MD.

OTOH, there isn't anything mentioned on the VPI website about a stainless steel wand option.
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Postby J.D. » 06 Jun 2009 20:46

chairguy :
It takes a pretty brave guy to say that his prior designs got it all wrong.


Unfortunately, there's nowhere that HW has ever said this, and judging by his bristly & brief appearances at Vinylasylum, there never will be. It would probably be a more interesting discussion if he had, but after years of building the (contradictory) principles in his flagship designs, well, the new one is something that he can distinguish with a position like "favorite sounding".

Wriggle words aside, the design speaks for itself. Like the 'rim drive', which would seem to cater to recent net-chatter levels on idlers, the current 'classic' also manages to mine the message-board world's preoccupaton with vintage tables-- in this case the Empire--- and contradict nearly every principle of beltdrive that Vpi has developed over the years, with massive uni-plinths, separated motor-pods, etc etc.

I would imagine that the Classic is a great sounding table, since the Empires were, though the empires had the distinction of the pabst motor. But there is simply no way it represents the philosophy that thousands of vpi customers have invested in over the years. That Mr W is blithely avoiding addressing that while pumping the hype-machine, is well, not encouraging to the prospective customer base. Vpi always tried to distinguish itself by supporting & upgrading it's 'modular' product line, and the recent paradigm shifts comprise a U-turn in that, I'm afraid.

Interesting developments, and we'll see what happens next. If I had stock in Vpi, I'd be happy, I'm certain this will do well; if I had years and years of investing in TnT developements, (or scouts, or aries or hrxs) I don't think I would be, very much.

Oh, and just curious if anyone else remembers a lower-left motor placement from a high end table in the nineties -- possibly a pink triangle or roksan ? Can't quite recall.......
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Postby J.D. » 07 Jun 2009 01:57

Sure, many of the propositions you make possibly could be, but I think it unlikely that you take thirty years of split-plinth, motorpod-separated massive-chassis Vpi tables and go sideways, with something that's nearly the opposite to that progression. Especially without some kind of proclamation of having 'seen the light', or something, which is, as noted, conspicuously absent either with the rim drive or this empire derivative. Simply put, the door is left open, the statements are nondescript and routinely positive, and the flag is run up the flagpole to see who may salute. Doesn't quite sound like a brand new day.

If the rim drive were to be a true 21st century homage to the idler, with appropriate and thorough renovation of parts and design, it might have been easier to take seriously and subscribe to something like you say. But it wasn't, it was a clamped-on revision to a previously available vpi parts-list. Nothing that cleared the table or set new standards.

If the empire version here were to be a true re-envisioning of the beltdrive by a consummate designer who'd spent his life refining the old motor-pod / split-plinths, you would be hearing something like Chairguy imagined --- a fearless designer brave enough to cut a whole new path through the forest.. and brave enough to say it --- but as we've noted, there is no such thing, no such statement. Again, the door left open, no confirming or denying that the "Classic" was a whole new direction or just a momentary nod to what gets talked-up on the net. It takes real strategic marketing finesse to thread this needle, avoid saying anything substantial, stay positive and on-message, and make no mistake, they're doing just that.

Sure, nobody has to build only one kind of deck, as you say. But Harry has, in general. And sure, if something else works, too, why avoid it ? But Harry has, in general. And sure, as you suggest, the classic maybe isn't capitalizing on nostalgia; maybe it's building and surpassing it, as you suggest. Or, it's just as simple as it appears on the surface. A blow-off of the principles of design that made vpi the company it is, and a shift from offering that pesky upgrade path.

It's his company, his table, he can and is doing what he likes. But there's no need to stretch to find an admirable or high-minded rationale, when the obvious seems so much easier to accept.
- the internet is full of vintage table talk that eventually takes money away from companies like vpi
- people who restore or replinth vintage tables often spend around $2k by the time the project is finished, coincidentally the cost of a 'classic'
- the two types that would most cover the net-generated interest would be an idler and a wood-based oldschool beltdrive
- the look of the vpi 'classic' is in some ways similar to that of vintage tables, and the 'rim-drive' one is an idler of some sort, right ?
- ergo, two counter-proposals to real vintage tables (usually surviving because of superior construction)-- both look plausibly credible, and you can purchase a new one for the price you'd pay for the uncertainty of a vintage one.
And in at least the case of the rimdrive, rather than any solidly-engineered attempt to honor the idler tradition, HW comes up with a scoutmaster with a round disc clamped on for a pulley, all other parts beltdrive parts from the shelf; in the case of the classic, it gets them off the upgrade-parts-and-service merry-go-round, since it's a total departure from what all previous customers thought was a vpi 'system' table.

All in all, a glass half full vs a glass half empty, most would say.
I'd say an obvious marketing roadmap leading directly away from the Tnts/Hrxs, in a way that doesn't lock the door if it doesn't take off.........
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Postby Alec124c41 » 07 Jun 2009 02:41

Just pour me half a glass of single-malt! :D

Cheers,
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Postby J.D. » 07 Jun 2009 04:02

Chairguy :
Not angry at all. My statement that HW's posts at VA are bristly and brief consists of having seen, in real time over the last nine years or so, all of the dude's posts at VA. And, it's an accurate characterization.

You seem to want to emphasize only the one HW post, when you read (and quote again) the following :

Guys, relax, I don't do any marketing, I have no interest in it.


Tell me it's not an plug; tell me it's not sincerity that comes from the wallet. Wait, tell anybody who'll believe it, but not me.

This (current) thread has had thick, hype-y stardust sprinkled all over it, in the seven pages thus far, and I think it's worth pointing out that there are financial concerns being catered to here without question. "I don't do any marketing" ? HW may be the Stradivarius of the Marketing Solution, but his "vintage-y" designs aren't a unanimous hit, and perhaps the more you know about vintage designs the more you know about this.

This is an audio-enthusiast website, so no one should be surprised to see enthusiastic receptions for products. But there's always going to be someone who questions them, and that's all that's happening here. So you need not ascribe 'anger' as the motive, when it's not the case.

.
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Postby Ren » 07 Jun 2009 12:17

Oh, and just curious if anyone else remembers a lower-left motor placement from a high end table in the nineties -- possibly a pink triangle or roksan ? Can't quite recall.......


Probably Pink Triangle. The Funk Firm offers a Linn LP12 modification called the Pink Link which includes a new top plate with the motor moved to the 7:00 position: http://www.thefunkfirm.co.uk/PL2.htm

Part of their explanation for that move is: " The Pink Link2 minimises the impact of motor pull on the cartridge by moving the motor from the 11 o’clock position on the top plate to the 7 o’clock position. Now the drive-belt path is placed in line with the cantilever of the cartridge. It is here that the impact of motor pull is minimised because the cartridge cantilever is least susceptible to vibration in its front-to-back plane of movement. "

I haven't heard that LP12 modification, so I cannot comment. The explanation sounds plausible to me.

I was considering some upgrades for my old LP12, but decided to buy the VPI CLassic instead. :)
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The new VPI Classic

Postby Blue Angel » 07 Jun 2009 15:46

Yeah,

That's the 64K $ question.

@

So the jury is still out on idler vs beltdrive for you? Absolutely no baiting intended 8)

Here, at ol' blue's lair, we are heading headlong into DD territory to find out what it's all about. I'm used to 301s' arm-out-of-socket torque and was shocked the other night to discover the MR-711 ain't no Charles Atlas...

I haven't played it yet, though.

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Postby J.D. » 07 Jun 2009 20:21

Chairguy,

Think we've both made our points, your responses I haven't found convincing, and I see I'm not convincing you either, so no need to be revisting them, we've laid out our cases.

On another aspect here, namely :
It's as speed stable as the direct drive decks I have owned the past 4 years....the only decks that have thus far allowed me to enjoy vinyl to the utmost. This belt drive table sounds as speed stable as them.


Hope your non-sds table continues to astound and amaze as it does now with right-out-of-the-shop tolerances, fit, and compliant elements, for years to come. I think you hit on exactly the soft spot of the vpi line that I've heard over the years... Speed Stability. Mr W's two new vintage-y efforts are aimed directly at that soft area, and maybe your table is immune, though I doubt it.

Once the motor & spindle bearings are run in, and the various compliant parts either soften and/or dry out a little, even with belt-changes it's my contention that it will begin to sound like any beltdrive, and you'll be wondering about that add-on of a thousand-dollar Sds. And wondering whether comparison to direct-drive was premature. Because the tightly constructed recipe of little-motors driving rubber-bands driving heavy-steel on big bearings--- gets slacker and slacker with time.

Hope for you it doesn't work out that way, but in my experience, and I had an Aries for years, and heard many others, that's the flow-chart. Doesn't make it a bad turntable by any, ahem, 'stretch'.
Just makes it a Belt Drive Turntable from Vpi.
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Postby J.D. » 07 Jun 2009 20:41

Ren ::
The Pink Link2 minimises the impact of motor pull on the cartridge by moving the motor from the 11 o’clock position on the top plate to the 7 o’clock position. Now the drive-belt path is placed in line with the cantilever of the cartridge. It is here that the impact of motor pull is minimised because the cartridge cantilever is least susceptible to vibration in its front-to-back plane of movement.

Exactly what I was trying to recall. And exactly the quote.
Thanks.
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Postby Blue Angel » 07 Jun 2009 22:16

Hi

Thanks for your thoughtful reply. The fact that I run 301's doesn't make me blind to the fact that there are other ways to skin a cat. To be more precise, there are two 301's and a Micro Seiki BL-51 in the constant playing loop. Soon, these decks will be joined by the Micro MR-711 and of the latter turntable, I know absolutely nothing as I've never before owned a DD.

In the past, I only had belt-drive equipment. Some were OK, others often needing speed adjustment during play. Next to each turntable I keep a strobe disc so I'm aware what happens during play. Most of the beltdrives 'hunted' or drifted off speed but I'm referring to observations I made 20+ years ago about a mixed bag of turntables I owned.

The best of the lot - the Micro Seiki BL-51 - has minimal of the off speed or drifting thing and that's why I keep it in the loop. Technically, I can't remember the type or size of motor but I know it sits at top left and remember it looked of the hefty kind.

@ TCG

I read the thread from when it started. I remember your comparisons between the Classic and the JVC which I could figure was like a 'quantum leap' between the two. I also looked at the pics and all I can say, I think you got terrific value for the money - especially if I recall the images and prices one reads about in the mags of what is currently available.

It was your money, afterall. And it is your ears and eyes you are pleasuring. I can't speculate on what it's like as a daily driver as I obviously haven't heard it.

There is very little time for prolonged listening for pleasure here. For me at least, my Garrards and my BL-51 does the job and that makes me happy. All three were acquired pre-owned. The first one sat in a box on the bloke's drive and he wouldn't even take money for it. The BL-51 cost peanuts and the cream Garrard grease bearing cost 1 peanut.

All three needed extensive work. Awww, I guess when I look at them now, I think my preference as to which are best, are determined by the number of hours/days or weeks I spent tittivatin' them. It so happens that the creamy ones fit the bill.

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Postby J.D. » 08 Jun 2009 03:13

chairguy:
the knee-in-the-groin you are so eager to deliver
Obviously you don't get the idea that you don't need to go there.
It's an attempt to take the discussion down to schoolyard level, it's demonstrably not the case, and the fact is I've been discussing on the merits all along here.

Your flourishes of verbal straw-manism--- I'm 'angry', I'm eager to deliver a 'knee in the groin', I dwell in the 'dungeon' of my thoughts, I'm 'maligning' someone personally ---

Sorry. Not proven, and further, not called for.
When you have to exaggerate like that, fabricate to try and force a point, you may as well give up, there and then.
You can get on with your info-mercial now.
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Postby J.D. » 08 Jun 2009 06:49

Chairguy, glad you could clarify just where it is that you're coming from.
Nicely put, and diplomatic too.
Stick with it, nice promo, Harry will send you a free belt or something.
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Postby blisteringbarnacles » 08 Jun 2009 09:08

'acid rain and camel spit'... is that a tom waits album? :wink:
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Postby davidsss » 08 Jun 2009 12:09

I'm with Blue on the BL51 (sounds bloody fantastic with one of his Mantis Carts), I find the speed stability to be fine (bear in mind this is about 27 years old). I know Micro Seiki built their TTs like tanks (or maybe aeroplanes) but I have a strobe disc and a light and whenever I check the speed it is spot on (it is adjustable). I think the DC motor has a lot to do with it too as I think the MR611 I used for many years was a tiny bit fast, it is a belt drive with an AC motor. No idea about the MR711 though, looks like quite a different beast, last of the MR series I think and may be more related to Micro Seiki's DD series decks.

I see no reason why belt drives can't be speed stable. Sounds like has found a stable one in the classic, and I think that is saying something, as he has, in the past, shown he is sensitive to speed stability issues. Sounds like a good find Mr Chair, hope you enjoy it for many years to come.

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