Denon dl-160, mm or mc on your phono preamp?

[ninetynine]

I ordered a denon dl-160 before I get it I would like to know if I can use this cartridge on the mc setting of my cambridge 640p phono preamp. The cambridge is rated 40db - mm and 55db - mc. I've read mixed responses about running the dl-160 on the mc setting. Some say it overloads the preamp and mm sounds better , others say that this cart works better at mc setting, i'm a bit confused on what to believe. Anyone can clarify if it actually damages the phono preamp running it at mc? Sound quality wise, is it better at mm or mc?
Finally, will the mc setting give me as much gain/volume as a 5mv mm cartridge?

[Werner]

"Anyone can clarify if it actually damages the phono preamp running it at mc?"

It shall not damage the preamp.

" Sound quality wise, is it better at mm or mc?"

Listen and you'll see. But the DL-160 was designed to operate into an MM stage.

"Finally, will the mc setting give me as much gain/volume as a 5mv mm cartridge?"

DL-160 nominal output: 1.6mV @ 5 cm/s
DL-160 source resistance: 70 Ohms (IIRC)
640P load: 100 Ohms
net input signal after loading: 0.94mV
+55dB gain: 530mV.

MM output: 5mV
resistance and loading: irrelevant
+40dB gain: 500mV

=> they will sound equally loud

[ninetynine]

Listen and you'll see. But the DL-160 was designed to operate into an MM stage.

Hmm...not sure I understand, in what way was it designed to operate in MM ?

[vincula2008]

The DL-160 is a High output moving coil, as opposed to low-output -think of the famous DL-103 for instance, that will require a step-up transformer or a suitable MC stage. Commonly, most pre-amp/integrated/receivers of yore had MM-stage by default. I´ve got a MC Benz E20 woking through a my amp´s MM-stage. No problem at all
The best, as Werner has already pointed out, would be to try. It´s very easy on this particular model, so no big deal

Regards,

Vincula

[EagleRocker]

I have the DL-160 and the 640 P and I prefer it in the MC input, and so do a few other people who have posted in various forums that I've come across. I find that in the MC input it's a fair amount louder and seems to have more weight and authority. No issues with too much gain going into an Onkyo A-9555.

[ninetynine]

It shall not damage the preamp.

I was reading a review of the dl-110 on the positive feedback website and the reviewer says this ( 3rd paragraph ) : "In fact, the DL-110 will probably overload a typical MC phono section."

Isn't overloading damaging for the electronics in phono pre?

[Alec124c41]

Overloading will distort the sound.
The output of the DL-160 (2 mc) is less than the limit of many MC stages (3 mv). I feed mine through the MC section of my Yamaha amp because I think it sounds better. YMMV.

Cheers,
Alec

[ninetynine]

Overloading will distort the sound.
The output of the DL-160 (2 mc) is less than the limit of many MC stages (3 mv). I feed mine through the MC section of my Yamaha amp because I think it sounds better. YMMV.

Cheers,
Alec

So therefore your saying 2mv is just right for the mc section?

[Werner]

>the reviewer says this ( 3rd paragraph ) : "In fact, the DL-110 will probably overload a typical MC phono section."

Most reviewers have near-zero technical knowledge and insight and just write stories.


>The output of the DL-160 (2 mc) is less than the limit of many MC stages (3 mv).

For the zillionth time: into 100 Ohms the DL-110/160 output almost halves to 0.8mV. No hay 2mV!!!


>So therefore your saying 2mv is just right for the mc section?

NOOOO!

[Werner]

Actually,the DL110/160 measure out at about 2.2mv...despite Denon's insistence at 1.6mv

The owners manual claims in both English and Japanese 1.6mV of output, but when I tested the cartridge it produced 2.2mV.

That is a story, and until Mr.Raskin specifies which reference level on the test record he used for his measurement it remains a story.

There a many different reference levels, and unless you pick the one Denon used you are going to be off.

Denon use 5cm/s. Many records are 7cm/s.

What's the difference? 1.6 x 5 / 7 = ... tadah! ... 2.2


Letitroll,

the cartridge's source resistance Rc forms a voltage divider with the phonostage's input resistance Rp. The output of this divider is Rp/(Rc+Rp).

In a HOMC Rc is around 70-140 Ohms.

In a LOMC Rc is typically below 20 Ohms (Note: DL-103 is 40).

[bauzace50]

Hi fellows,
this is to jump in the Denon thread, not necessarily about preamp section compatibility.
Bastlnut actually helped me overcome the very last prejudice of mine against m-c designs. I used to view Denons as the ultimate nightmare with m-c's...for invalidly associating Denons with certain specific m-c's with exaggerated treble response. This prejudice lasted about 30 years, despite my owning three Ortofon SPU at one time, and one SL-15T later on.
But having Bastlnut's modified DL-300 on a loan basis, I had to wipe the mirror in front of me! With much difficulty! It was my last personal bastion against m-c's!!!
What a lovely sound! Later on I caught one unmodified, NOS DL-300, and it was love at first hearing! Too bad it's discontinued, But it's easy to extrapolate! Those Denons mentioned here must be truly lovely. Good listening to you all. And those diamond tips are truly lovely! So are the Ortofon tips, for that matter.
Regards, and happy listening to all,
bauzace50

[Werner]

160 Ohms? Then I was mistaken. The 70-80 Ohms I mentioned must
be another coil, probably something Swiss

20 log ( 100 / (100+160)) = -8.3dB , +55dB = 46.7dB

20 log (47k / (47k+160)) = -0.03dB , +40dB = 40dB

[wwelly]

Overloading will distort the sound.
The output of the DL-160 (2 mc) is less than the limit of many MC stages (3 mv). I feed mine through the MC section of my Yamaha amp because I think it sounds better. YMMV.

Cheers,
Alec

The Denon 160 output voltage is nominally 1.6mV . This does not mean that, if you measured the output voltage in a normal situation, that you would measure 1.6mV on a CRO or multimeter. This specification is merely the output level for a particular input case (usually quoted as a voltage @ 5cm/sec). I can't remember the source, but typically the cartridge output voltage can vary approximately + or - 20db (x10) from the nominal voltage due to the music signal.

Similarly, for the Phono stage itself, the input voltage specified is not an absolute. The input voltage is usually specified as the input voltage required to obtain a certain output voltage (taking the gain of the phono stage into account). It is not a maximum voltage that can be applied before the phono stage will distort.

The parameter that dictates the maximum input level is the input overload figure. In some instances this can exceed the nominal output voltage of a particular cartridge, but it would still be insufficient for the peak voltage generated by that cart, i.e. the phonostage could still distort. This would be more likely to occur if you use a HOMC into a LOMC input.

For example, NAD specify the input overload of the MC input of the PP2 is 0.8mV @ 20Hz. Therefore if, for example, our DL-160 was generating just over half of its nominal output voltage at 20Hz into the PP2 the phonstage could well be distorting.

All I'm really trying to say is that the specifications published for carts and phono stages are not absolutes, but defined specifications for certain input or output situations, and that caution is required. I don't deny that your cart may well be working fine into an MC input, but other readers could equally have disastrous results trying the same thing with their equipment.

If you are considering doing this, read the specifications for your phono stage and take all of them into account, not just the input sensitivity spec.
[/b]

[ninetynine]

I couldn't find any info anywhere that specifies the mc overload limit of the cambridge 640p. I guess knowing this would answer the question much quickly.