The Linn LP12 Gramophone.

[rolleye]

the LP12 was not a bad t/table when it first appeared although bass was a bit 'lumpy' iirc,.... wot got my goat was the way Linn Products treated the dealers of the day....I had a p/t job at a shop in Surrey from 1981-86 which sold most good quality kit eg Ariston, Thorens, PT, Dual, A&R, Systemdek etc and i remember a Linn rep telling the shop manager to change his dem room around to suit the LP12/Naim/one pair of speakers type of customer demo and giving v. strong hints not to sell a couple of the above manufacturers products otherwise they would find it 'difficult' to stock Linn products ......he was told to f**k off and a week later the supply of Linn gear dried up followed a week or two later by Naim products ......we continued without those two and still made a good profit selling Pink Triangle, Myst, Jordan, Celestion, B&W, Technics, Nakamichi etc etc.....that's one of the reasons i still use a Pink Triangle t/table, the other reasons are it still sounds better

[cafe latte]

the LP12 was not a bad t/table when it first appeared although bass was a bit 'lumpy' iirc,.... wot got my goat was the way Linn Products treated the dealers of the day....I had a p/t job at a shop in Surrey from 1981-86 which sold most good quality kit eg Ariston, Thorens, PT, Dual, A&R, Systemdek etc and i remember a Linn rep telling the shop manager to change his dem room around to suit the LP12/Naim/one pair of speakers type of customer demo and giving v. strong hints not to sell a couple of the above manufacturers products otherwise they would find it 'difficult' to stock Linn products ......he was told to f**k off and a week later the supply of Linn gear dried up followed a week or two later by Naim products ......we continued without those two and still made a good profit selling Pink Triangle, Myst, Jordan, Celestion, B&W, Technics, Nakamichi etc etc.....that's one of the reasons i still use a Pink Triangle t/table, the other reasons are it still sounds better

I agree, and I had the chance too to hear a Pink triangle next to a Linn too and thr Pink triangle was the far better sounding TT. It is just a bit of a shame the early ones literally fell to bits None could deney that the Linn sound was nice as it bounced along, but it was far from correct. The systemdeks were better in this respect, but could sound a bit thinner on a Linn side by side, as the Linn added false fullness to the sound. Everyone knows though at the time a Linn and anything side and the Linn not winning was a hanging offense . Seriously though for the same reasons as above my friends shop could not stock Linn. They really did not want you to be able to compare with anything
Regards
CL

[Hanuman]

SF, to be fair, Ariston themselves copied from Thorens and AR, so they're none of them squeaky clean.

Unless I'm mistaken they didn't copy the most important part of their product, the PTFE-augmented single-point bearing but Linn did, apparently, "adapt" that feature of the Ariston RD11 for use in the LP12.

[cafe latte]

SF, to be fair, Ariston themselves copied from Thorens and AR, so they're none of them squeaky clean.

Unless I'm mistaken they didn't copy the most important part of their product, the PTFE-augmented single-point bearing but Linn did, apparently, "adapt" that feature of the Ariston RD11 for use in the LP12.

"Adapt" Thats a good one
Regards
CL

[avole]

Yet, of all the turntables around when the Linn was introduced, which is the only one still being produced? To be fair to Linn, they did and do allow a full upgrade path. I doubt the systemdek would get close to a Linn now.

[rolleye]

i suppose it has to be said that the aggressive marketing techniques paid dividends for Linn but i'm sure there were other ways to encourage dealers to support their products

[bubba45]

The systemdek with acrylic platter sounded better than the Linn of the time as did the first Dunlop systemdek and those brave enough who reviewed it said as much.

Hmmm..... to be honest CL I can't agree with that if you're referring to the the Systemdek IIX & / or its variants. It is a cracking deck IMO but even with an acrylic platter (I know I tried one) I honestly don't think it would have matched my 1980 LP12 and certainly not the tweaked LP12 I owned.

The LP12 sound was just.....'better' in so many ways.

I've even heard it often quoted that there were reviews claiming a Systemdek IIX with acrylic platter would give a Pink Triangle PT1 a run for it's money, but sadly after having done A/B comparisons I can absolutely dispel that rumour too.

I can see how the Systemdek Transcription on the other hand would give a contemporary LP12 a fair old scrap in an A/B comparison. That's a fine deck that IMHO doesn't get the recognition it deserves, which is probably down to looking gopping and that awful Nextel stuff it was covered in. Match it with a Mission 774 Original and then you have a wonderful combination IME.

But the Systemdek IIX compared to an LP12? Nah, the LP12 sounds better all day long IMO.

Going back to the LP12 though it is a finely engineered TT that undoubtedly IMO & IME sounds great. It really is an enjoyable deck to play music on, whether colouration or not it just draws you into the music.

They're also built like tiger tanks, very rarely go wrong and look damn fine.

And I'm not disagreeing with SF or any others that it played a significant part in the development of TT's certainly in the UK regardless of where Ivor T got the original idea / design from or their aggressive marketing. (They were / are a business in a competitive market remember so who can blame Linn for that?)

I haven't owned all the makes and models of BD TT but I have owned a few of the contemporary vintage tables that the LP12 has seen off - 3 x TT2, 1 X RD11, 3 X RD40, 3 x RD80SL, 1X TD160, 1 X Td165, 2 X TD125 MKii, 1 X Td166, 1 x TD150, 1 x Systemdek IIX ( with acrylic platter), 1 x Systemdek Transcription, 2 x Pink Triangle PT1, 2 x LP12; I've used these in all kinds of arm and cart combinations.

I can honestly say that today on the 2nd hand market there are suspended sub-chassis, belt drive, TT's that can at least match an LP12 for sound but cost far less and which are therefore IMO better VFM. That's why I still think it's over hyped or overrated.

Personally if it had a good arm on it I'd pay about £300 max for an LP12 with a working Valhalla, black springs and pre-cirkus bearing etc

Additionally there are IMHO & IME some damn fine vintage Direct Drives that will show an LP12 a clean pair of heels but won't set you back as much - The JVC you bought SF, the Sony PS2250 I'm listening to right now, a Denon DP60L I own.

Sorry Cafe Latte but as good as it is an SL1210 IME doesn't come into that bracket as the LP12 is much more 'musical'.

An SP10 will, IMHO, walk all over an LP12 but obviously unless you are a very lucky Mother Luvva and can find a bargain (I think I was) it can also set you back quite a bit more too.

Anyone owned an LP12 and a Logic DM101 and / or an STD 305? The latter are 2 TT's I would dearly love to try out. How do they compare?

(P.S. FWIW If you ever come across a working Sony PS2250 BUY IT!!!!! If it comes with original arm and plinth simply rehouse it & the arm in a solid birch ply plinth and away you go. They are rare and seem to go for little money compared to its' contemporary's but they are excellent DD's and I can't recommend them highly enough to be honest)

Anyhow diatribe and verbal shits over with for now.

[avole]

I always think STD would have done far better without that acronym!

[bubba45]

Yeah bit like Chlamydia Turntables Ltd, Bellend Speakers and the Knobrot Amplifier Co. Sometimes people just don't pay enough attention to the marketing dept.

There was a bus company in Stoke-on-Trent called Potteries Motor Traction Ltd. I lived there for 7 years until I was 29 and I would still snigger like Beavis & Butthead everytime I saw a bus go by with PMT emblazoned on the side.
I'm 42 now and there's a musical instrument shop in Oxford called Professional Music Technology with a big PMT sign outside and I have a little smirk whenever I walk past...............Sad I know but it's the little things in life.

[goatbreath]

Not compared side by side,,but now own a LP12,,Used to own A Dm101..The DM101 sounded airer,,but a bit mare bass light..But that could have been the arm etc..

Both Great Tables..Best that's difficult,,I know some won't take this seriously..But my Michell Mycro does not come second to either..

[cafe latte]

The systemdek with acrylic platter sounded better than the Linn of the time as did the first Dunlop systemdek and those brave enough who reviewed it said as much.

Hmmm..... to be honest CL I can't agree with that if you're referring to the the Systemdek IIX & / or its variants. It is a cracking deck IMO but even with an acrylic platter (I know I tried one) I honestly don't think it would have matched my 1980 LP12 and certainly not the tweaked LP12 I owned.

The LP12 sound was just.....'better' in so many ways.

I've even heard it often quoted that there were reviews claiming a Systemdek IIX with acrylic platter would give a Pink Triangle PT1 a run for it's money, but sadly after having done A/B comparisons I can absolutely dispel that rumour too.

I can see how the Systemdek Transcription on the other hand would give a contemporary LP12 a fair old scrap in an A/B comparison. That's a fine deck that IMHO doesn't get the recognition it deserves, which is probably down to looking gopping and that awful Nextel stuff it was covered in. Match it with a Mission 774 Original and then you have a wonderful combination IME.

But the Systemdek IIX compared to an LP12? Nah, the LP12 sounds better all day long IMO.

Going back to the LP12 though it is a finely engineered TT that undoubtedly IMO & IME sounds great. It really is an enjoyable deck to play music on, whether colouration or not it just draws you into the music.

They're also built like tiger tanks, very rarely go wrong and look damn fine.

And I'm not disagreeing with SF or any others that it played a significant part in the development of TT's certainly in the UK regardless of where Ivor T got the original idea / design from or their aggressive marketing. (They were / are a business in a competitive market remember so who can blame Linn for that?)

I haven't owned all the makes and models of BD TT but I have owned a few of the contemporary vintage tables that the LP12 has seen off - 3 x TT2, 1 X RD11, 3 X RD40, 3 x RD80SL, 1X TD160, 1 X Td165, 2 X TD125 MKii, 1 X Td166, 1 x TD150, 1 x Systemdek IIX ( with acrylic platter), 1 x Systemdek Transcription, 2 x Pink Triangle PT1, 2 x LP12; I've used these in all kinds of arm and cart combinations.

I can honestly say that today on the 2nd hand market there are suspended sub-chassis, belt drive, TT's that can at least match an LP12 for sound but cost far less and which are therefore IMO better VFM. That's why I still think it's over hyped or overrated.

Personally if it had a good arm on it I'd pay about £300 max for an LP12 with a working Valhalla, black springs and pre-cirkus bearing etc

Additionally there are IMHO & IME some damn fine vintage Direct Drives that will show an LP12 a clean pair of heels but won't set you back as much - The JVC you bought SF, the Sony PS2250 I'm listening to right now, a Denon DP60L I own.

Sorry Cafe Latte but as good as it is an SL1210 IME doesn't come into that bracket as the LP12 is much more 'musical'.

An SP10 will, IMHO, walk all over an LP12 but obviously unless you are a very lucky Mother Luvva and can find a bargain (I think I was) it can also set you back quite a bit more too.

Anyone owned an LP12 and a Logic DM101 and / or an STD 305? The latter are 2 TT's I would dearly love to try out. How do they compare?

(P.S. FWIW If you ever come across a working Sony PS2250 BUY IT!!!!! If it comes with original arm and plinth simply rehouse it & the arm in a solid birch ply plinth and away you go. They are rare and seem to go for little money compared to its' contemporary's but they are excellent DD's and I can't recommend them highly enough to be honest)

Anyhow diatribe and verbal shits over with for now.

My Systemdek was the one covered in that nasty felt, but it did sound great though. The 'musical' nature of the Linn is false and it is why I dont like them and prefere my sl1210 too an old Linn. Linns, not the 14000 pound new one, but most of the other lp12s gave an attractive larger than life often as you discribed musical presentation that many people like, but it is not true or real. It is added distortions, that add pleasent colour the things. The Systemdek IIX next to a Linn sounded cold in comparison and narrower, but correct. If you enjoy the Linn sound you are not going to like a Systemdek as much and you are going to hate a Technics. One note on the sl1200 and just a note as this is not a Technics thread.. I recently experimented trying to beat the slight closed in aspect of the Technics. I realise it is mostly just a well damped TT that is adding little to the music so on a side by side with something with a wood plinth it sounds less musical (my Commonwealth idler). All the same I tried a few things like felt mats over the stock and cork ect. Anyway just fitting my stanton 881 to the Technics solved it. Getting the right cart match on a systemdek would be interesting IMO.
I can see the attraction of a Linn and I would have one to add to my collection just to use on particular recordings, but I dont think I could live with the set up they require every time you fart.
Regards
CL

[bubba45]

Hi CL

Yeah the Systemdek Transcription is the one to have. Lovely deck, great sound & kinda wish I still had mine.

True the LP12 and its kin all have a colour to their sound as do most decks. Accurate or not sometimes that colour is a very appealing quality.

I like a variety of sounds to be honest depending on my mood and the music I am playing hence having 3 TT's with different arms, carts and phono stages set up in my lounge pretty much all the time.

I aim to eventually have a fairly top drawer example of each of the main drive types and so will have a Technics SP10 or Sony PS2250 to represent the Direct Drive type of TT - (I can't decide between them at the moment so will most likely keep both), a Thorens TD125 MKII for the suspended subchassis / Belt Drive type (so far my personal favourite of this type of TT) and a Goldring Lenco GL75 for the Idler Drive method.

As for the SL1210? Like you I'm a very big fan and will be keeping and using mine. I still think they are excellent decks with high VFM and I'd easily recommend one to anyone just starting out or looking for an upgrade. IMO they look cool, sound great as stock but with a few simple mods and the right cart, they are not easily be beaten.
My MK5 sits comfortably in what I think is a fairly illustrious company of vintage decks that I have been lucky enough to wheel & deal so I can afford them. It ain't near the top of the list, but it ain't going nowhere.

However CL just take a look over at a couple of the other forums - AoS and Time Step to name but 2 - and you'll see what I mean by the SL1210 being over hyped.
The claims made for them and the money spent on 'upgrades' to "release their full potential" would make an LP12 blush!!!
You'd think the techs at Panasonic were fools for not realising what they had in an SL1210!!!

Anyway now you have a top drawer DD and ID time to get yourself a BD?

[cafe latte]

I would really like a sp25 if I get another TT and a Garrard 401 or 301, so belt drives have been pushed way down the list for now. All the same if I came across a bargin early systemdek, or a complete nutter giving away a Townsend rock I could be persuded
Anyone??
On the sl1210 front I think most of the upgrades costing hunreds are more than hype, but quite simply taking the piss. Changing the psu can be done cheaply diy and I think changing the arm has merits as does fitting better leads but past that I think people are waisting their money. Why not just buy a better cart or another TT?
CL

[bubba45]

I'm with you on the upgrades. Plain old bonkers some of them.

I think change the feet and the mat, maybe the external cables - I've yet to to do mine - and then basically find the right cart.

I went with an ATF3 in the end. They just marry together really well, each part counteracting the flaws of the other.

A Pickering XV15 625e was a delightful combination - nice open sound, lovely & clear, lots of detail but also real nice balance across high, mid and low tones. It was so good I donated it to my friends SL1210 set up which I bought her as a graduation present a few months ago.

My Nagaoka MP20 also works excellently on an SL1210, but the ATF3 is just that little 'better' sounding to my ears.

If an SP25 is as good as a SP10 then yeah it would be one to get. Lovely design too.

All told there are 5 more belt drives to try for me if I can - Logic DM101, STD305, Michell Gyrodec SE, Nottingham Analogue Spacedeck and a Townsend Rock. Then I'll definitely, absolutely call it a day on the experimentation with BD's.

For idlers like you I would like to have a listen with a 301 or 401 and also the hybrid belt & idler TD124.

However none of these are pressing and I will most likely get all my current stock of TT's (11?) tweaked, modded & set up and be content.