80rpm find

[wapper]

I recently unearthed a two record set by "The English String Quartet" put out on Columbia's label (London). The records appear to have never been played, they are in an unmarked condition. The speed is 80 on the label and not 78. The recording is of Haydn's Opus64 in 4 parts. The records have no lead in groove and the needle finish groove doesn't go to the label. My question is are these records as scarce as I believe and are they worth anything to collectors?

[Coffee Phil]

Hi wapper,

I'm sorry but I have no idea if that record set is "collectible". It certainly is interesting and it has good music on it. My guess is that it is from before 1925 since I think the speeds got closer to 78 RPM with electrical recording. I think the lack of a lead-in groove and run-out groove was pretty much standard for early records.

The fact that they state the speed suggests to me that it is fairly accurate. Now the question is: Is this record vertically cut as an Edison Diamond disc or lateral cut. Edison Diamond discs were vertical cut.

Since this set looks pristine I would suggest that you find out more about it before attempting to play it. This is especially important if you are putting on an old acoustic machine. If you play it with a ~3 mill stylus in a stereo cartridge you will likely not do any damage to it. If you play it on a stereo system and the sound seems to come from between the speakers it is lateral cut like Lps and most 78s. If the sound has no apparent direction it is vertical cut like an Edison.

How thick are the discs? Edisons are about 1/4". Can you post pictures of them?

I would love to put them on my turntable and give them a listen. My machine will spin at 80 RPM as well as 78.26, 45, and 33 1/3 RPM. I can also play both vertical and lateral records properly in mono.

Phil

I recently unearthed a two record set by "The English String Quartet" put out on Columbia's label (London). The records appear to have never been played, they are in an unmarked condition. The speed is 80 on the label and not 78. The recording is of Haydn's Opus64 in 4 parts. The records have no lead in groove and the needle finish groove doesn't go to the label. My question is are these records as scarce as I believe and are they worth anything to collectors?

[wapper]

Hi Coffee Phil Thanks for your response. I believe these are vertical cut. I've used a close up magnifying lens on them and the tracks are parallel without
horizontal waving. From what I've been able to find so far it would appear they predate electronic recording (i.e. pre 1925). I don't want to use a modern narrow needle on them in case I damage the grooves. That they've been acoustically cut at 80 RPM suggests they may be valuable. Being that old also suggests there is probably debris in the trench which will need removing before anything else. I'm aware the trenches can pick up dirt even if they haven't been used. Any suggestions re cleaning / washing them, other than keeping the labels dry and not using anything abrasive?
Regards
Wapper

[Coffee Phil]

Hi wapper,

The cleaning regimen depends on the material the record is made of. Most 78s are shellac and will tolerate water for a short time but alcohol is anathema to them. Edison Diamond Discs on the other hand are laminated with Condensite for the playing surfaces and a core of fiber and or clay. Condensite is a Bakelite type material and tolerates alcohol well. Water will delaminate an Edison Disc.
All of this is to say find out what the record is made of and be careful. I am linking a site with a lot of information on old records:http://www.videointerchange.com/vintage_78s.htm There is information on cleaning and stylus sizes. They mention a calibrated microscope to determine groove width and therefor stylus size.

Keep us posted on what you find.

Phil

Hi Coffee Phil Thanks for your response. I believe these are vertical cut. I've used a close up magnifying lens on them and the tracks are parallel without
horizontal waving. From what I've been able to find so far it would appear they predate electronic recording (i.e. pre 1925). I don't want to use a modern narrow needle on them in case I damage the grooves. That they've been acoustically cut at 80 RPM suggests they may be valuable. Being that old also suggests there is probably debris in the trench which will need removing before anything else. I'm aware the trenches can pick up dirt even if they haven't been used. Any suggestions re cleaning / washing them, other than keeping the labels dry and not using anything abrasive?
Regards
Wapper

[soundsretro]

Hi from across the pond! They will be lateral cut as Columbia did not produce any vertical cut discs. They will be 'shellac' discs so can be washed gently and quickly with a warm water and washing soap solution, and a soft brush. I wouldn't rush to do this if they are already in good condition. Worth - unlikely to be a lot, acoustic 78's of this period tend only to be scarce of they are rare or unusual material or artist performance....

[Cartridge Hound]

English records of this vintage tend to be recorded at 80rpm.
They are indeed lateral cut.
They will play fine with a 3.5 mil stylus on a modern mono cartridge with a lightweight tonearm.

[Whitneyville]

Shellac doesn't tolerate water well as it ages, so soap and water is almost a "last resort" cleaning for me. I have some 60 year-old non-benzene flammable spot dry-cleaning fluid (we call it naptha in the US, I believe it's known as parrafin spirit in the UK) and it doesn't harm shellac. Acoustic recordings were made on so many mediums and at wildly different speeds and vertical or horizontal cuts, outside-in and inside-out starts, and different groove widths. Someone could write a dozen volume set of books on this and not cover every "system" or method used. Strangely, they all seemed to play back pretty well on acoustic players.

[Coffee Phil]

Hi Whitheyville,

I'm surprised that they still sell that stuff as dry cleaning fluid. When I was a kid it was sold under the trade name Energene. We were common folk and dry cleaning was spendy so my mother would pour it in the kitchen sink and do her dry cleaning in the sink. Good thing she didn't blow the house apart. We had a gas range with standing pilots about 5 feet from the sink. If regular Energene was not toxic enough you could get non-flammable Energene at extra cost. That stuff was carbon tetrachloride.

Hopefully Energene is no more, but you can get naptha as lighter fluid. We used that to clean the shower walls when I was in Basic at Lackland AFB.

Phil

Shellac doesn't tolerate water well as it ages, so soap and water is almost a "last resort" cleaning for me. I have some 60 year-old non-benzene flammable spot dry-cleaning fluid (we call it naptha in the US, I believe it's known as parrafin spirit in the UK) and it doesn't harm shellac. Acoustic recordings were made on so many mediums and at wildly different speeds and vertical or horizontal cuts, outside-in and inside-out starts, and different groove widths. Someone could write a dozen volume set of books on this and not cover every "system" or method used. Strangely, they all seemed to play back pretty well on acoustic players.