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Re: Home made interconnect

Postby awkwardbydesign » 06 Jan 2012 16:03

jlbruyelle wrote:Isn't it a strange world where consumer stuff costs much more than pro stuff? :D :wink:

When was the world not strange? :mrgreen:
Anyway, different priorities, pros need low unit cost, strength, ease of use, etc. I bet a stiff delicate cable that took time to burn in (yes, many passives DO need burn in; try Blackgate caps!)would go straight in the bin. Unless you knew a "consumer" who would buy it. Mind you, some people, like Tim de Paravicini do well in both worlds.
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Re: Home made interconnect

Postby jlbruyelle » 06 Jan 2012 16:43

awkwardbydesign wrote:When was the world not strange? :mrgreen:

He he, you have a point here :D

awkwardbydesign wrote:Anyway, different priorities, pros need low unit cost, strength, ease of use, etc. I bet a stiff delicate cable that took time to burn in (yes, many passives DO need burn in; try Blackgate caps!)would go straight in the bin.

Here you don't have a point :mrgreen: Unity cost doesn't matter (much) as long as it has benefits. Think Neumann, Nagra, Cantar, quite a few others (just to stay in the audio realm) and you will have an idea of what I mean. It's not about being cheap, it's all about being good: if your connector is as good as my connector but costs 10 times as much, I'll just keep mine. Where the costly Neutrik RCA is useful is in mobile use, so it gets a market for this case, and the cheaper Neutrik RCA gets the "studio" market since it offers the same quality and convenience (in this context) for much less money. Believe me, any serious pro would gladly use WBT plugs it they had seen them to be beneficial to the sound and/or the reliability, and they have good ears (usually).

As for productivity: granted, it is an essential issue compared to the consumer market, but burning-in doesn't have to be done every morning: just like anything else, like loudspeakers, it is done once for all and pretty much accepted as a necessary evil - as long as it brings good things. Even the tubes in the mic pres take some time to heat up, and yet you see them in studios: why not, as long as they sound good when you need them?

awkwardbydesign wrote:Mind you, some people, like Tim de Paravicini do well in both worlds.

There you lost me. I've never seen that name on anything. Googling the name led me to EAR which only seems to be making high end hifi, but no pro equipment. Any link to give me?
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Re: Home made interconnect

Postby timbloke » 06 Jan 2012 18:26

Will get some lengths of RG6 75ohm and give it a try.

Yes I do have access to Canford Audio. Will also check out HSS-M2 for phono connections.

Out of interest Jlbruyelle, what cables do you use for your equipment, both phono and line level?
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Re: Home made interconnect

Postby awkwardbydesign » 06 Jan 2012 19:41

jlbruyelle wrote:
awkwardbydesign wrote:When was the world not strange? :mrgreen:

He he, you have a point here :D

awkwardbydesign wrote:Anyway, different priorities, pros need low unit cost, strength, ease of use, etc. I bet a stiff delicate cable that took time to burn in (yes, many passives DO need burn in; try Blackgate caps!)would go straight in the bin.

Here you don't have a point :mrgreen: Unity cost doesn't matter (much) as long as it has benefits. Think Neumann, Nagra, Cantar, quite a few others (just to stay in the audio realm) and you will have an idea of what I mean. It's not about being cheap, it's all about being good: if your connector is as good as my connector but costs 10 times as much, I'll just keep mine. Where the costly Neutrik RCA is useful is in mobile use, so it gets a market for this case, and the cheaper Neutrik RCA gets the "studio" market since it offers the same quality and convenience (in this context) for much less money. Believe me, any serious pro would gladly use WBT plugs it they had seen them to be beneficial to the sound and/or the reliability, and they have good ears (usually).

As for productivity: granted, it is an essential issue compared to the consumer market, but burning-in doesn't have to be done every morning: just like anything else, like loudspeakers, it is done once for all and pretty much accepted as a necessary evil - as long as it brings good things. Even the tubes in the mic pres take some time to heat up, and yet you see them in studios: why not, as long as they sound good when you need them?

awkwardbydesign wrote:Mind you, some people, like Tim de Paravicini do well in both worlds.

There you lost me. I've never seen that name on anything. Googling the name led me to EAR which only seems to be making high end hifi, but no pro equipment. Any link to give me?

Tim has designed the valve electronics for cutting lathes, and I believe much more. Yes, EAR is his hifi brand, I believe he also designed the recent Quad valve amps. I will try to find you some links.
As to pros having good ears, there are strong opinions on that! Anyway, aren't you all deaf 'cos you haven't been protecting your ears? He he.
Try this for a start- http://ear-usa.com/timdeparavicini.htm
also- http://ear-usa.com/timdeparavicini.htm
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Re: Home made interconnect

Postby jlbruyelle » 06 Jan 2012 22:35

timbloke wrote:Out of interest Jlbruyelle, what cables do you use for your equipment, both phono and line level?


You are going to be disappointed :mrgreen: On my own setup I use Monster cables of an old type, purchased 20 years ago on a lazy day when I did not feel like soldering. Monster was just a cable manufacturer back then, not the marketing freak they became later on. I chose them because they were the only ones in the shop that were 0.5m long, and they work very well so I keep using them. For the balanced links I use home-mounted Canare cable and Neutrik XLR. I also have a couple of cables made with Gotham GAC3 where high EMF immunity and flexibility matter, mostly with phantom-powered mics.

I have made unbalanced cables using either coaxial cable, RG59 or KX6A. I also have made cables using balanced Canare much the same way as LPspinner makes them: hot wire between the central pins, cold wire between the ground shells, and shielding screen soldered only to one side. This is the recommended scheme for unbalanced interconnects using balanced cable. Note that the screen should be connected on the source side for best noise rejection: this is the one case in which an interconnect has a preferred direction. All these cables work well and I use them on a regular basis.

For phono use, I only have turntables with integrated output cables, so I just use them. I did try other cables however, and found that some lower-grade types are microphonic at phono level: if you tap them you can hear it in the loudspeakers. Such cables are likely to cause mechanically-induced distortion and should not be used. I tested the RG59 and KX6A coaxials: they are not microphonic. I never tried RG6 but I don't see why it would be.
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Re: Home made interconnect

Postby jlbruyelle » 06 Jan 2012 22:51

awkwardbydesign wrote:I will try to find you some links.
As to pros having good ears, there are strong opinions on that! Anyway, aren't you all deaf 'cos you haven't been protecting your ears? He he.
Try this for a start- http://ear-usa.com/timdeparavicini.htm
also- http://ear-usa.com/timdeparavicini.htm

Huh? What did you say? Are we dead cows? :mrgreen: Seriously, there are cases of occupational deafness and tinnitus in concert engineers, but I am mostly involved in documentary, art and research where the sound levels are much more reasonable. Incidentally, you have a (partial) point in that I and colleagues occasionally feel some difficulty to follow a conversation at the end of a long shooting day, even though the audiogram is normal. It seems to be a psychological effect of spending the whole day listening to how the voices sound rather than what they are saying.

Thanks for the links :)
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Re: Home made interconnect

Postby sakellogg » 07 Jan 2012 04:40

Incidentally, you have a (partial) point in that I and colleagues occasionally feel some difficulty to follow a conversation at the end of a long shooting day, even though the audiogram is normal. It seems to be a psychological effect of spending the whole day listening to how the voices sound rather than what they are saying.



i never thought of that. i bet. interesting
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Re: Home made interconnect

Postby jlbruyelle » 07 Jan 2012 14:05

It's just a hypothesis that occurred to us, not a proven fact AFAIK.
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Re: Home made interconnect

Postby awkwardbydesign » 07 Jan 2012 17:02

jlbruyelle wrote:
awkwardbydesign wrote:I will try to find you some links.
As to pros having good ears, there are strong opinions on that! Anyway, aren't you all deaf 'cos you haven't been protecting your ears? He he.
Try this for a start- http://ear-usa.com/timdeparavicini.htm
also- http://ear-usa.com/timdeparavicini.htm

Huh? What did you say? Are we dead cows? :mrgreen: Seriously, there are cases of occupational deafness and tinnitus in concert engineers, but I am mostly involved in documentary, art and research where the sound levels are much more reasonable. Incidentally, you have a (partial) point in that I and colleagues occasionally feel some difficulty to follow a conversation at the end of a long shooting day, even though the audiogram is normal. It seems to be a psychological effect of spending the whole day listening to how the voices sound rather than what they are saying.

Thanks for the links :)

I used to be a signwriter; after a while the words were gibberish, I had to get my wife to read them as I could only see the shapes!
My comment about about pros having good ears refers to the sound of some recordings! And gigs.
Inerestingly (to me at least), when I worked in a noisy workshop I couldn't hear the phone, which had a low tone, unless I wore earplugs. My unusual HF sensitivity masked the LF phone sound. I am therefore always wary of people who are dogmatic about sound quality; I am not referring to you, just in general.
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Re: Home made interconnect

Postby awkwardbydesign » 07 Jan 2012 17:22

Further to perception differences, try this topic-
viewtopic.php?f=86&t=39071
It really resonates with my experiences, obviously at a much lesser level. Can of worms time! :shock:
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Re: Home made interconnect

Postby timbloke » 07 Jan 2012 21:45

Consumer choices (which is what hi-fi is- we evaluate the merits of purchases) are an emotional thing, as is taste in music and films. A friend who works in advertising told me there was a psychological study carried out regarding hi-fi cables. According to the study, thick colourful ones sound better.
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Re: Home made interconnect

Postby awkwardbydesign » 07 Jan 2012 22:49

Are you sure you're talking about cables? Fnar fnar.
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Re: Home made interconnect

Postby timbloke » 23 Jan 2012 09:57

Made two pairs of RG-6 75ohm cables and one pair of phono leads from HSS-M2 this weekend. I used Canare L-5CFB (RG-6) for the line level- sounds great so far even though I suppose they're still burning in. Haven't had a change to test the phono leads as my tonearm is currently in pieces pending repairs.

My Van Den Huls are going on ebay ;-)
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Re: Home made interconnect

Postby LPfan » 23 Jan 2012 12:14

jlbruyelle wrote: Note that the screen should be connected on the source side for best noise rejection: this is the one case in which an interconnect has a preferred direction.


So the screen should be connected at the the tt or CD player end? Just want to reconfirm before I try this.

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Re: Home made interconnect

Postby cafe latte » 24 Jan 2012 00:05

jlbruyelle wrote:AFAIK there is only one RG6 standard, and it has a solid core (RG6 is not a model, it is a standard that can be made by many manufacturers as long as they strictly follow its rules). Not that it makes any real difference: the stranded core is supposed to make the cable a little less stiff, but since RG6 is foil-screened it will be very stiff anyway. Also, make sure that your connectors can accomodate the 6.7 mm outer diameter before you buy RG6: it is really wide compared to ordinary audio cables.


timbloke wrote:Would RG6 75 ohm cable work well for connecting a tape deck (in & out) to a preamp?

No problem for any unbalanced audio use, as long as its stiffness does not bother you.

timbloke wrote:I'm wondering whether to stick decent plugs on them or chuck the whole lot and start again.

Both solutions work well, so make your own choice :mrgreen:

For phono level I would not use Gotham or Canare due to their high capacitance (real pity, they are great under all other respects), and Belden doesn't make any unbalanced cable. If you can have access to Canford, their HSS-M2 type seems to be just what you want, and inexpensive too. The shielding is good (single helix, which is better than braid) and the capacitance is low, 58 pF/m. But IIRC they have a minimum order. OTOH it is a good all-around cable made by a reputable company, so you might consider ordering a reel and making all your cables with it, if you need that much length.

I have not been able to find any data re. Soundlink cables, so I can't really comment. I can only say as a general comment that the mention of "directional" on a cable is a priori a bad sign, as it has no rational justification and is usually associated to unreasonable cost, more a marketing tool aimed at the audiophile market where "rational" and "reasonable price" are dirty words :mrgreen: ;) Again, this is just a general comment, not aimed at Soundlink since I don't know them at all. OTOH the arrow is sometimes just intended as a reminder of the direction of the signal, which is not a bad idea. CL, do you have a link to Soundlink, or a data sheet? I'm curious about these cables.

Hmm curious as the only links I can find are from sellers :? . Here is one such link: http://www.wagner.net.au/catalogue/13_Cable.pdf
Mine seems to similar, but pink and 8mm, but the discription otherwise seems to match and it is very low capacitance, and it is cheap to me at least as a friend sells it. :) . Next time I am in Cairns I must ask him if he has any info on it as you have me curious now.
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