Proper Speaker Placement

[PeterW.]

[quote="MonkeyBoy"]Proper Speaker Placement

This is a guide to help those who have the space so they may place their stereo speakers in such a manner as to enable them to get everything out of the recordings they have.

Massive Snippage.

Thank you! Excellent post for (at a guess) about 30% of what is out there and their users. Good post for about another 20%. Possibly difficult post for the rest of it (and them) were the user of said data to follow it slavishly.

Back in the day, when Acoustic Research was the paragon of speaker technology, they included a little white-paper with their speakers that pretty much ran as follows (distilling about 30 pages into a single post):

Place speakers on the LONG WALL of the room. The woofer center should be at least one and one half (1.5) woofer diameters (hereandafter know as WD) from the floor at the quarter and third points from each corner, but no less than six (6) WDs apart), compromising the 1/3 point before the 1/4 point, and no less than two WDs from any corner. Place against the wall to start and move out no more than on WD if bass is too extended/overpowering when against the wall.

This will give the widest possible sound-stage, resist standing waves and resist excessive bass. This was also specific to acoustic-suspension technology.

I keep AR3as and I keep Maggie MG-IIIs, substantially different speakers, both amenable to a wide sound-stage and broad sweet-spot yet both easily able to convey orchestral and voice placement (or at least as-mixed). I find that the long-wall placement obtains for both of them but the Maggies DO want to be away from the wall quite a bit - almost 30" ideally. The 3as want to be right against the wall and about 10" above the floor to their base.

I also cannot abide by the concept of a 'sweet spot' that is defined as a few dozen inches cubic. That is not how we experience natural sound whether music or otherwise, we should not be forced into that mode when listening to it being reproduced. That is *JUST AN OPINION* and applies only to me. I try to place my speakers to maximize the sound-stage and allow the most natural listening possible. When Mozart is playing the cats find their sweet spots. When it is Emmylou Harris, both dogs find theirs, the cats remain fairly indifferentn but do listen. But they are the never the same each time but are always within the same general area - and they both hear better than I do. Our listening room is 16 x 24 x 10 (feet) with three glass french doors and one solid wood french door. One fireplace, hardwood floors, plaster walls, and bookshelves built into the two short walls.

Put another way - it depends. On the speaker, the intended result, the starting point, the nature of the room and many other things. No one-size-fits-all is appropriate.

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA

[Black Stuart]

Hi Tako,
your right about plasterboard - it does absorb low frequencies - it kills bass completely. Most new houses are built down to a price, so very rarely are walls or ceilings double boarded, which would go some way to alleviating the life being sucked out of the bass.

I used to know a guy who lived in Brabant who hassled all his neighbours/buren into giving him all their cardboard egg boxes and he used these to line the walls of an old salmon cannery, to turn it into a recording studio - it worked.

Having lived in two apartment blocks in Spain, which had re-inforced concrete floors, topped with ceramic tiles, you got plenty of bass but it was a hard unnatural sound and the walls constructed of the thin cavity clay blocks with a skim coat of finish plaster made for serious ringing if music was played at anything like a reasonable level.

This is what I get now in this old house - it only happens at specific frequencies but is very annoying.It would probably be terrible if it was'nt for the two outer walls being massively thick stone and rubble.

Like others have mentioned - I don't live or want to live in a 'reference' room. I want to enjoy my music within a comfortable environment. Yes I want to maximise my sound rig but 'hair shirts' are not part of it.

I used to live in an old house in the UK, built, circa 1880 and the lounge was about 25 x 15 x 10ft. Two walls were structural, so one and a half brick thick. The front wall was triple bay windows down to 1 metre/3ft. one internal wall was lathe and plaster and all plastered walls first had a really thick coat of 'bonding plaster' ( never seen it anywhere in mainland Europe) which contained lots of horsehair, then two coats of finish plaster. The room also had a massive marble fireplace and one entrance/exit door that was really sturdy and properly made (check out most modern doors - crap, unless you pay a lot of money). The floor was suspended wood/wooden joists and as is normal in most UK homes, a fully fitted carpet.The ceiling was high as in most old houses and was plastered and with a very big decorative plaster rose - the sound was marvellous.

PeterW - very good post. I once owned AR 3as and that's exactly as I used them, brilliant bass but the treble not so great, what a shame they did'nt use ribbon tweeters - esta la vida.

A hardwood floor is what I want - it will depend on how much oak t&g costs at the time, failing that pine t&g.

Also could'nt agrre more about a tiny sweet spot - what happens when friends come round to listen as well.

Re. windows - I want lots of light, which means that I will design the personal rooms with windows in two walls - reflections, no worry when using internal wooden shutters with internal insulation. When listening during the day just have the shutters at an angle. The ceilings will be angled from front to back, 15% approx. - most concert halls (that have good acoustics) have either a domed ceiling or as above.

In conclusion, thanks to the OP for all the info, great to use as a basis. As PeterW said no one size fits all - happy listening.

[Black Stuart]

Jonti,
I meant to include reference to your comment in my last post - there was a marvellous all wooden auditorium in East Anglia(UK) which unfortunately burnt down - it's acoustic was marvellous.

In Den Haag there is the Congressbouw ( I saw Weather Report there) I think the designer intended it to be a no-nonense enormous 'reference room' - he succeeded. Problem is it also creates a totally sterile environment which is not conducive to listening to music. By contrast the Concertebouw in A'dam is incredible.

So, no response from the OP or KlausR.

[MonkeyBoy]

Proper Speaker Placement

This is a guide to help those who have the space so they may place their stereo speakers in such a manner as to enable them to get everything out of the recordings they have.

Massive Snippage.

Thank you! Excellent post for (at a guess) about 30% of what is out there and their users. Good post for about another 20%. Possibly difficult post for the rest of it (and them) were the user of said data to follow it slavishly.

Back in the day, when Acoustic Research was the paragon of speaker technology, they included a little white-paper with their speakers that pretty much ran as follows (distilling about 30 pages into a single post):

Place speakers on the LONG WALL of the room. The woofer center should be at least one and one half (1.5) woofer diameters (hereandafter know as WD) from the floor at the quarter and third points from each corner, but no less than six (6) WDs apart), compromising the 1/3 point before the 1/4 point, and no less than two WDs from any corner. Place against the wall to start and move out no more than on WD if bass is too extended/overpowering when against the wall.

This will give the widest possible sound-stage, resist standing waves and resist excessive bass. This was also specific to acoustic-suspension technology.

I keep AR3as and I keep Maggie MG-IIIs, substantially different speakers, both amenable to a wide sound-stage and broad sweet-spot yet both easily able to convey orchestral and voice placement (or at least as-mixed). I find that the long-wall placement obtains for both of them but the Maggies DO want to be away from the wall quite a bit - almost 30" ideally. The 3as want to be right against the wall and about 10" above the floor to their base.

I also cannot abide by the concept of a 'sweet spot' that is defined as a few dozen inches cubic. That is not how we experience natural sound whether music or otherwise, we should not be forced into that mode when listening to it being reproduced. That is *JUST AN OPINION* and applies only to me. I try to place my speakers to maximize the sound-stage and allow the most natural listening possible. When Mozart is playing the cats find their sweet spots. When it is Emmylou Harris, both dogs find theirs, the cats remain fairly indifferentn but do listen. But they are the never the same each time but are always within the same general area - and they both hear better than I do. Our listening room is 16 x 24 x 10 (feet) with three glass french doors and one solid wood french door. One fireplace, hardwood floors, plaster walls, and bookshelves built into the two short walls.

Put another way - it depends. On the speaker, the intended result, the starting point, the nature of the room and many other things. No one-size-fits-all is appropriate.

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA

I know. Some manufacturers advise placing their speakers very close to the rear wall, etc. It was never meant as a one size fits all guide, but it should help for probably a majority of people here. Unfortunately, it doesn't take into account building materials or room treatment which are subjects that deserve their own threads with a lot of information. A lot of it is meant to deal with standing waves, etc. It certainly helped me a lot just researching it. I just wish I had the financial oomph to build what I want instead of having to rely on what I can afford to rent.

[PeterW.]

I know. Some manufacturers advise placing their speakers very close to the rear wall, etc. It was never meant as a one size fits all guide, but it should help for probably a majority of people here. Unfortunately, it doesn't take into account building materials or room treatment which are subjects that deserve their own threads with a lot of information. A lot of it is meant to deal with standing waves, etc. It certainly helped me a lot just researching it. I just wish I had the financial oomph to build what I want instead of having to rely on what I can afford to rent.[/quote]

I dunno... In over 40 year tinkering with the hobby (starting when I was of single-digit age) I have found that room acoustics are perhaps the easiest obstacle to overcome *IF* speaker placement drives the rest of the room and not otherwise. Pretty much anything from the provebial padded cell to an acoustical concrete vault with 'perfect square' dimensions (ideal for standing waves) may be overcome with careful speaker placement, a few accommodations as subtle as a framed canvas picture in the right place, and "good" speakers.

Sadly - what makes "good" in these cases does not necessarily include otherwise excellent speakers - one obvious example: Klipshorns which require corner placement for proper function will not be suitable in many cases. That these speakers are otherwise wonderful does not change that brutal fact. Generally horn-type drivers are difficult. Highly efficient speakers are difficult - that efficiency happens for physical reasons that do not afford complete placement flexibility.

Consider the difference between a horn and a dome - and I will exaggerate to make a point: One must be very nearly on-axis to hear a horn properly. At the same time, it will deliver more 'sound' (move more air) relative to the axis than a dome. With a dome, dispersion is over a much greater arc, so much more energy is required to make the same sound level at the same distance at any point over that arc. Greater dispersion allows greater flexibility in speaker placement as, typically, mid and treble are not the biggest issues once standing waves are addressed.

With that in mind, and with the psycho-acoustical fact that the ear 'prefers' louder sounds, and bass is also typically how 'louder' is perceived (again, this is greatly simplified and stripped), perceptions such as AR3a speakers being poor in mid-treble or that wallboard soaks up high frequencies and such are absolutely accurate when the real issues are missed, misunderstood or ignored. Because it is a fact that poor speaker placement relative to the materials, shape and size of a room will create conditions that support these perceptions.

I do keep a pair of AR3s - and I will match their treble to my Maggies with the 'true ribbon' tweeters - all other things being equal - as the AR placement does not force their bass over the treble and midrange. BUT! even a couple of inches from where they are now, and that signature AR *BOOM* comes right back. Especially in a room with horsehair plaster walls & ceiling, hardwood floors and lots of glass. Did it take time to get it right? Sure did. Finagling over a period of several days and several locations - and a _very_ understanding wife.

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA

[Per A]

I have had very good results using the method given by
http://www.audiophysic.de/aufstellung/beispiel_e.html
Bass reproduction improved so that it became easdier to follow what the bass player plays and also imaging improved immensely. My listening room is nearly square, 4 x 4,5 metres which means the speaker are far into the room. What is unusual is their advice to use the sidewall reflections and placing speakers close to the sidewalls.

[slawts]

The Audiophysic has worked for me. I had to bring the speakers in so that they are 60 cm from the side walls on a 4m wall. They're only 50cm from the back wall but they're Monitor Audio Studios which are recommended to be closer to a wall.
I tried them at 50cm but the sound was muddy especially the bass. Originally they were 15cm a side further in and sounded congested - well in comparison to now. It's a very easy to follow site.

[LousyTourist]

For those who place their speakers along the longer walls in the room the ratios are reversed; the placement from the rear wall is 27.6% of the total distance from the rear wall and 44.7% of the distance from each of the respective side walls. Again, if your room is 20 X 15 feet and you place your speakers so the longer wall is the rear wall then you would place them so the distance from the rear wall would be 50 inches and 107 inches from each side wall.

can someone help me with this? My room is 18ft x 12x... with speakers along long wall. By my calculations, 18 x .447 = 8.046 ft. Times two is 16 ft.... so by this calculation, my speakers should be 2 feet apart? As in the example above, where the room is 20 x 15, the speakers would be 107 inches, or 8.94ft in from each wall or about 2 feet apart.

What am I missing?

[PeterW.]

You are not missing anything at all. The issue with rigid formula based on symmetry is that they are also (mostly - but not always) based on the theoretical 'sweet spot' that bit of a few cubic inches where one (who adheres to the theory and the formula) must insert his/her ears. I am using the term 'must' only a little bit in exaggeration.

I suggest you use woofer-diameters about the 1/3 points of the wall. Not knowing the nature of your speakers, I will not suggest how far (or not) they should be placed _from_ the wall, but side-to side try this: Put one speaker at roughly the 1/3 point of the wall, choosing whether the nearest corner is active (door or window or similar) or not. Now, the other speaker towards the inactive corner wants to be somewhere between that other 1/3 point and the corner, but no closer than two (2) woofer diameters from that corner. And that is the speaker you will move about until you hit the sound and soundstage that most appeals to you. Then - do the same with the other one.

There is on one-size-fits-all, and most good speakers are remarkably resilient and tolerant of placement as long as a (very) few basic common-sense parameters are followed.

I will make a side note here: Since speakers have devolved into systems with mostly tiny little woofers (6" or less) and now requiring sub-woofers for any sort of substantial, realistic bass - placement for a wide, comfortable yet detailed soundstage has gotten much more problematic. It is almost as if manufacturers and designers (surely driven by the bean counters) have conspired around the 'sweet spot' theory so that they can deliver acceptable sound at a low cost, but make it the consumer's problem that it is so.

I wonder what it would cost to manufacture the AR3a (or the AR9) today? I know what a large set of Maggies does cost - and they are relatively inexpensive as these things go.

[LousyTourist]

I went to the Cardas site and read what they had to say. Cardas said with speakers along the long wall, you need to create a 'golden ratio' between the speaker and the individual corner. In other words, place the speaker 1X from the back wall and 1.6X from the side wall. In my case I set the speaker 28 inches out into the room and about 4 3/4 feet from the corner.

The results were quite good. I will probably make some minor adjustments but I am quite floored by the difference from what I had. My previous speakers didn't involve any concept of room placement so this is new ground for me.

[PeterW.]

Again, it depends on the speakers. The Maggies like to be away from the walls and away from the corners. The ARs not so much away from the walls - but above the floors and away from the corners.

You will be continuously surprised by how small changes in placement may have significant changes in result - Keep at it until you find what you really like!

[DON73]

I don't have the AR3a but I do have the similar AR11 and it likes to be up off the floor and a foot or so away from the back wall........or at least I like it that way.

[Reiver]

HI all,

just got to add my 2p's worth here.

Now whilst I do not claim to have the mathematical know how, nor wish to claim that I know more than the clearly knowledgeable previous posters I would like to share my experiences of setting up a normal living room for critical monitoring.
The only claim I make to knowledge is that I have a good ear and the recording and mixing work I have done in less than ideal environments is testament to this.

As for proper speaker placement it will depend on speaker design (closed box, front ported cabinet, rear ported cabinet, passive reflex, etc) however, the basic things I learnt were:

1) Form an equilateral triangle with your head at the apex
2) Tweaters should be at around ear height
3) if you're in a square room, or rectangular room standing waves could be a problem, rooms with uneven geometry are less likely to cause issues.
4) these can be offset and ameliorated with soft furnishings or commercially available bass traps in the corners of the room
5) you can use line of sight to work out reflection points (behind your head, above your head, behind the speakers etc) these should be treated with some form of reflection damping. You can make perfectly usable and effective reflection dampers using rockwool, a wooden frame and some kind of decorative fabric covering, or you can buy commercially available aurlalex foam
6) Sofas, bookshelves etc all affect the geometry of the space you are listening in as they will absord some frequencies and ignore others. Unless you are working in a tailored environment ( in which case, go to a professional) the only real guide you have is you 'ear'

There are no hard and fast ways of setting up any real world space for critical or even just good old high fidelity listening.

My best suggestion would be to follow some basic guidelines (see above) and then find someone who can sort you out with a cd or tape of low, mid and high frequency tones played from low to high c at the same db and listen for any that are either overly pronounced or inaudible...
If, when in the listening position, you can hear all tones with the same perceived level then your system is optimal.

This kind of process has allowed me to set up studio monitors for critical listening in adverse conditions on more than one occasion. I have used it to set up my hi-fi and found it to have similarly pleasing results.

Hope this is of interest to folks out there in audio land.

Reiver

[afs97cjh]

There was a Black Stuart who used to be on the PH7 mailing list are you he?

On speaker placement has anyone mentioned something called "master set"? (Do a search, you could add sumiko to the search terms).
I've used an abbreviated form of the whole method so starting with the speakers against the wall move one of them forward until all the sound seems to be coming from that speaker or as close to it as possible. Move it incrementally (a few mm at a time)around this point until you eliminate any bass resonance that may occur. I deviate from the "master set" method as I don't initially use any toe in and just move the other speaker out the same amount. then try a little toe in. This has worked for both Thiel CS1.6s (in living room) and Naim Allaes (in my escape the telly room and running from a spare Rega cursa/maia combo). The Thiels use 5mm toe in on a width of 22cm, down from 20mm following a source and amp upgrade. The allaes want no toe in at all.