Bearing oil replacement

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cafe latte
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Re: Bearing oil replacement

Post by cafe latte » 21 Mar 2018 07:38

hand of ike wrote:Hi Chris,

I think we are going around in circles here. I don’t think anyone is doubting what you are saying regarding oil constitution. We are only saying that it’s application might not be relivant here due to the manufacturer suggesting something different and our experience.

If this thread had attracted a slew of users whose bearings were shot then it would be different. But this is not our experience. I’m sure if a problem had arisen with this Michell would be aware by now and would have done something out this, they have been trading since the 1980’s.

I know you aren’t suggesting anything radical. My point there was you were posting about there being misinformation in this thread even using SHOUTY capitals about it when the information we were stating is inline with manufacturer - the degree of divergence is irrelevant here.

Again I can’t see at any point where someone has questioned your information, just it’s application for our turntable.

Our stance is with the recommendation from the manufactorer which I think is valid.

Give Michell time, on their site I think it suggests that they attempt to get back to each email within a week. I’ve had all my replies within 3 days but I have asked questions about operation and stated I owned the turntable - they probably prioritise there time accordingly.
My capitals were not shouty but more bold.
I dont believe we are going in circles, use what you want, my last post was making more clear my point and alternatives.
Also just because you and others here have not had issues it does not mean others have not. Also how many here have tested for rumble using different oils and repeated the same test after a number of years of use? Without that sort of test it is impossible to conclude no damage has been done with the oil you are using.
How can a machine oil or a turbine oil not be relevant (your words) when they would be ideal in every case for a inverted bronze TT bearing?
I dont care how many years Mitchell have been making turntables either, engine oil is wrong for so many reasons in the application they are apparently recommending its use. Just because they say it is correct it does not mean it is right. There are few oils available that have quite so much detergent in it as Mobile one, this alone makes the oil far from ideal for a turntable bearing, never mind the other issues.
Chris
Last edited by cafe latte on 21 Mar 2018 07:55, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Bearing oil replacement

Post by hand of ike » 21 Mar 2018 07:53

Okay just to address a few things....

Capitals are established as shouting - I work in copy and they are; there is an option in the reply to do bold as you can see... Capitals in social media imply shouting not emphasis.

Regarding the none of us having the issues, this is probably why we are waiting for Michell’s reply.

The relivance I was stating was not to do with how relivant oil is in a bearing - it obviously is and 4 pages of replies show that we see it is. It was directed at the language and syntax you were using, I meant it’s irrelevant if you were suggesting a large or small departure from the manufacturers recommendation it is a departure. The oil stays relivant the degree of departure doesn’t.

And just because you say Michell are wrong doesn’t make them wrong either.

These are the circles, we’ve all pitched up - let’s see what Michell have to say.

Regards

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Re: Bearing oil replacement

Post by GyroSE » 21 Mar 2018 08:04

cafe latte wrote:
hand of ike wrote:Hi Chris,

I think we are going around in circles here. I don’t think anyone is doubting what you are saying regarding oil constitution. We are only saying that it’s application might not be relivant here due to the manufacturer suggesting something different and our experience.

If this thread had attracted a slew of users whose bearings were shot then it would be different. But this is not our experience. I’m sure if a problem had arisen with this Michell would be aware by now and would have done something out this, they have been trading since the 1980’s.

I know you aren’t suggesting anything radical. My point there was you were posting about there being misinformation in this thread even using SHOUTY capitals about it when the information we were stating is inline with manufacturer - the degree of divergence is irrelevant here.

Again I can’t see at any point where someone has questioned your information, just it’s application for our turntable.

Our stance is with the recommendation from the manufactorer which I think is valid.

Give Michell time, on their site I think it suggests that they attempt to get back to each email within a week. I’ve had all my replies within 3 days but I have asked questions about operation and stated I owned the turntable - they probably prioritise there time accordingly.
My capitals were not shouty but more bold.
I dont believe we are going in circles, use what you want, my last post was making more clear my point and alternatives.
Also just because you and others here have not had issues it does not mean others have not. Also how many here have tested for rumble using different oils and repeated the same test after a number of years of use. Without that sort of test it is impossible to conclude no damage has been done with the oil you are using.
How can a machine oil or a turbine oil not be relevant (your words) when they would be ideal in every case for a inverted bronze TT bearing?
I dont care how many years Mitchell have been making turntables either, engine oil is wrong for so many reasons in the application they are apparently recommending its use. Just because they say it is correct it does not mean it is right. There are few oils available that have quite so much detergent in it as Mobile one, this alone makes the oil far from ideal for a turntable bearing, never mind the other issues.
Chris
We're really going around in circles here now, we've never questioned that there may be other oils that are similar or better. As hand of ike writes- Michell themselves recommend us owners to use this kind of oil for our Michell decks. We all follow these recommendations and it seems no one in here has had any problems with their respective bearing.

These longterm tests you refer to- have you done these on your own turntable and bearing? If you've may we see the results?

Now lets wait and see what Michell tells us about this matter.

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Re: Bearing oil replacement

Post by cafe latte » 21 Mar 2018 08:14

hand of ike wrote:Okay just to address a few things....

Capitals are established as shouting - I work in copy and they are; there is an option in the reply to do bold as you can see... Capitals in social media imply shouting not emphasis.

Regarding the none of us having the issues, this is probably why we are waiting for Michell’s reply.

The relivance I was stating was not to do with how relivant oil is in a bearing - it obviously is and 4 pages of replies show that we see it is. It was directed at the language and syntax you were using, I meant it’s irrelevant if you were suggesting a large or small departure from the manufacturers recommendation it is a departure. The oil stays relivant the degree of departure doesn’t.

And just because you say Michell are wrong doesn’t make them wrong either.

These are the circles, we’ve all pitched up - let’s see what Michell have to say.

Regards
Ok I should have used bold, I was being lazy, but it was meant to be bold.
Actually Mitchell are wrong, not because I say so, as any oil chemist will tel you the same. There are good reasons detergents are in motor oils and not in turbine oils or compressor and machine oils. Same for turntable oils, Technics for example use a turbine oil in the bronze Technics bearing. All oils are made to work in particular environments, some for high rpm and hot, some cool, some sliding forces some rotational. Mitchell are wrong simply for choosing an oil that will absorb water, cause particles to suspend just to name two. Point is they are wrong simply as there are many oils designed exactly for the purpose and mobile one is not one of them. Mobile one is a multi grade engine oil with additives for sooty hot car engines when a turntable bearing only needs a mono grade needs no detergents, actually will wear less without them and anti wear additives for bronze bearings. The two are worlds apart, unless a Mitchell bearing has a V8 (and a filter) in it somewhere I cant see why it was chosen.
Chris
Edit..
I will hopefully here from Mitchell soon and when and if I do I will post here.
Re tests, the Doc did a lot of tests to find the best oil to come to his conclusion re the best oil for Mitchell but he knew this was going to go on and some people would not listen so he did not want to be involved in the thread, I respect that..
I personally hope this discussion will help some make an informed decision, not in the slightest bit concerned what people choose to use, but other readers can come to own conclusions. Oil is often a bit mystical some marketed as almost magic in a bottle, an oil thread like this with facts laid bare can only be a good thing.

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Re: Bearing oil replacement

Post by GyroSE » 21 Mar 2018 08:50

cafe latte wrote: Ok I should have used bold, I was being lazy, but it was meant to be bold.
Actually Mitchell are wrong, not because I say so, as any oil chemist will tel you the same. There are good reasons detergents are in motor oils and not in turbine oils or compressor and machine oils. Same for turntable oils, Technics for example use a turbine oil in the bronze Technics bearing. All oils are made to work in particular environments, some for high rpm and hot, some cool, some sliding forces some rotational. Mitchell are wrong simply for choosing an oil that will absorb water, cause particles to suspend just to name two. Point is they are wrong simply as there are many oils designed exactly for the purpose and mobile one is not one of them. Mobile one is a multi grade engine oil with additives for sooty hot car engines when a turntable bearing only needs a mono grade needs no detergents, actually will wear less without them and anti wear additives for bronze bearings. The two are worlds apart, unless a Mitchell bearing has a V8 (and a filter) in it somewhere I cant see why it was chosen.
Chris
Edit..
I will hopefully here from Mitchell soon and when and if I do I will post here.
Re tests, the Doc did a lot of tests to find the best oil to come to his conclusion re the best oil for Mitchell but he knew this was going to go on and some people would not listen so he did not want to be involved in the thread, I respect that..
I personally hope this discussion will help some make an informed decision, not in the slightest bit concerned what people choose to use, but other readers can come to own conclusions. Oil is often a bit mystical some marketed as almost magic in a bottle, an oil thread like this with facts laid bare can only be a good thing.
These tests that Doc did; when did he start to do them with his Michell bearing? 10 years ago? 20 years ago? As you wrote earlier it has to be done over a longer period of time to get scientific results. What we all must have in mind here is that there are people in here that have had their Michell bearings in use for over 20 years and those still look undamaged and they're not causing any audible rumble. I want to know why they still are intact in mint condition after such a long time when this kind of oil, according to you, should cause such a damage on the bearing itself that even should be visible. Please enlighten us.

Maybe Doc can join us again and present his results?

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Re: Bearing oil replacement

Post by hand of ike » 21 Mar 2018 09:44

Not gone into it as I’ve not got time right now, but was just watching a YouTube video of turntable setup by a professional who said that the Triangle Art Signature turntable requires you to use synthetic motor oil on their bearing.....

That’s aparanty a $30,000 turntable, not that this should make a difference but someone charging that much for a player probably hasn’t skimped on oil R&D either...

For the sake of clarity to anyone reading this at any time please check what the manufactorer recommends as I’m sure some will recommended something else for different decks...

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Re: Bearing oil replacement

Post by cafe latte » 21 Mar 2018 13:05

hand of ike wrote:Not gone into it as I’ve not got time right now, but was just watching a YouTube video of turntable setup by a professional who said that the Triangle Art Signature turntable requires you to use synthetic motor oil on their bearing.....

That’s aparanty a $30,000 turntable, not that this should make a difference but someone charging that much for a player probably hasn’t skimped on oil R&D either...

For the sake of clarity to anyone reading this at any time please check what the manufactorer recommends as I’m sure some will recommended something else for different decks...
Ok synthetic does not form varnish like non synthetics do which is why I use synthetic oils. A 30k turntable saying you need synthetic oil is not surprising, mineral oil would not hurt it if changed regularly but synthetic is sensible. When varnish forms it blocks the sintered bronze, not good.. Any alternative oil I would use must be synthetic as I said before..
Chris

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Re: Bearing oil replacement

Post by hand of ike » 21 Mar 2018 13:11

Mobil One is fully synthetic.... and the pro setup guy said motor oil.

Why are you saying it’s now different for this turntable but not the Michell - as from his words he could be putting Mobil One Fully Synthetic motor oil in the Triangle Art table...

I’m now confused by your replies.....

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Re: Bearing oil replacement

Post by cafe latte » 21 Mar 2018 13:14

GyroSE wrote:
cafe latte wrote: Ok I should have used bold, I was being lazy, but it was meant to be bold.
Actually Mitchell are wrong, not because I say so, as any oil chemist will tel you the same. There are good reasons detergents are in motor oils and not in turbine oils or compressor and machine oils. Same for turntable oils, Technics for example use a turbine oil in the bronze Technics bearing. All oils are made to work in particular environments, some for high rpm and hot, some cool, some sliding forces some rotational. Mitchell are wrong simply for choosing an oil that will absorb water, cause particles to suspend just to name two. Point is they are wrong simply as there are many oils designed exactly for the purpose and mobile one is not one of them. Mobile one is a multi grade engine oil with additives for sooty hot car engines when a turntable bearing only needs a mono grade needs no detergents, actually will wear less without them and anti wear additives for bronze bearings. The two are worlds apart, unless a Mitchell bearing has a V8 (and a filter) in it somewhere I cant see why it was chosen.
Chris
Edit..
I will hopefully here from Mitchell soon and when and if I do I will post here.
Re tests, the Doc did a lot of tests to find the best oil to come to his conclusion re the best oil for Mitchell but he knew this was going to go on and some people would not listen so he did not want to be involved in the thread, I respect that..
I personally hope this discussion will help some make an informed decision, not in the slightest bit concerned what people choose to use, but other readers can come to own conclusions. Oil is often a bit mystical some marketed as almost magic in a bottle, an oil thread like this with facts laid bare can only be a good thing.
These tests that Doc did; when did he start to do them with his Michell bearing? 10 years ago? 20 years ago? As you wrote earlier it has to be done over a longer period of time to get scientific results. What we all must have in mind here is that there are people in here that have had their Michell bearings in use for over 20 years and those still look undamaged and they're not causing any audible rumble. I want to know why they still are intact in mint condition after such a long time when this kind of oil, according to you, should cause such a damage on the bearing itself that even should be visible. Please enlighten us.

Maybe Doc can join us again and present his results?
I really doubt the Doc will be back, tests as far as I know were for rumble details I dont know except he used another oil for lower rumble.
Guys please read what I wrote without trying to "win" a thread debate, honestly not why I am here nor you should be. Please guys before replying google for half an hour about what I have said. Google detergents in oil, why and why not when they are good and bad. How they can cause wear and in a car how the opposite is true. This alone causes damage to a turntable bearing, but please read it yourself.
Chris

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Re: Bearing oil replacement

Post by hand of ike » 21 Mar 2018 13:24

Not trying to win anything.... you mentioned before about clarity for any future reader which is what we want as well.... We are saying follow Michell's advice you are saying it's BS, for the sake of such clarity that you deemed important to mention we are continuing this discussion....

I'm still confused as to your reply to my post about the Triangle Art player it's fine to use a synthetic motor oil (like Mobil One) in this $30k player but it's not fine for the Michell Gyro SE - I don't see the difference?

Mobile One 0W-40 is fully synthetic, was recommend by Michell - Michell actually said I wouldn't do any harm to my bearing if when I asked it was ok to use 5W-30 or 10W-40 - they said they recommended 0W-40 but I could use these other oils as long as it's fully synthetic...

Nowhere has anyone suggested using anything but fully synthetic oil.

Can you clarify?

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Re: Bearing oil replacement

Post by cafe latte » 21 Mar 2018 13:27

hand of ike wrote:Mobil One is fully synthetic.... and the pro setup guy said motor oil.

Why are you saying it’s now different for this turntable but not the Michell - as from his words he could be putting Mobil One Fully Synthetic motor oil in the Triangle Art table...

I’m now confused by your replies.....
I understood you said this 30k turntable using synthetic not Mobile one, and you said motor oil not Mobile 1 either. Which oil what specs?? Again this is hifi not space exploration, this is the world where cables make a night and day difference where physics dont apply. Yet what the manufacture says is law, right?
Hmm no..
Most hifi at that price actually like Mitchell comes from family businesses not oil experts they are just hifi lovers who waht to make a great product but they can make mistakes.
Again dont want to argue, but PLEASE (that was bold but lazy again) do some research instead of looking for stuff to support your argument..
Chris

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Re: Bearing oil replacement

Post by hand of ike » 21 Mar 2018 13:35

I said the $30k setup guy said Triangle Art use synthetic motor oil on their bearing.

You said this was as far as you're concerned okay.

Mobile One is fully synthetic motor oil - so it fits in what what the setup guy said.

We have fully synthetic motor oil in our Michell Gyro SE's, namely Mobil One

I want to know why this is different according to you as this is where the discussion is around. No mater what I google it isn't going to tell me why you say fully synthetic motor oil is okay in the $30k deck but have been saying Mobile One (which is fully synthetic motor oil) is not good in the Gyro SE....

Just some simple clarity around this would actually help a great deal.....

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Re: Bearing oil replacement

Post by hand of ike » 21 Mar 2018 13:40

71wB1l+9p8L._SL1500_.jpg
(204.68 KiB) Downloaded 281 times
This is the oil in my bearing.... And fit's the oil recommendation from the setup guy for the Triangle Art Signature...

Fully Synthetic Motor Oil

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Re: Bearing oil replacement

Post by cafe latte » 21 Mar 2018 13:49

hand of ike wrote:Not trying to win anything.... you mentioned before about clarity for any future reader which is what we want as well.... We are saying follow Michell's advice you are saying it's BS, for the sake of such clarity that you deemed important to mention we are continuing this discussion....

I'm still confused as to your reply to my post about the Triangle Art player it's fine to use a synthetic motor oil (like Mobil One) in this $30k player but it's not fine for the Michell Gyro SE - I don't see the difference?

Mobile One 0W-40 is fully synthetic, was recommend by Michell - Michell actually said I wouldn't do any harm to my bearing if when I asked it was ok to use 5W-30 or 10W-40 - they said they recommended 0W-40 but I could use these other oils as long as it's fully synthetic...

Nowhere has anyone suggested using anything but fully synthetic oil.

Can you clarify?
Fully synthetic does not form varnish sintered bronze has pores which the oil absorbs into the varnish blocks those hole so yes re synthetic I agree. Re oil weights with multi grades forget the second number that is the viscosity at 100 degrees C the only number that matters is the first. Mobile 1 matches with iso 68 in this respect synthetic of course. 5 30 or even 10 30 is so similar it is not funny as the 30 bit is not important and the 5 bit is so close at 40 degrees weight wise it kind of points to the person answering the oil questions does not understand that much about oils. This is getting tedious but in a rotational bearing you simply need a stable film of oil to the top of the bearing. Too thin and it breaks down and results in bearing wear, too thick and it does not arrive at the top again wear. Wrong additive and grit circulates and again wear.
Please have a read..
Posts too are crossing over. I said WHAT MOTOR OIL (bold again) in Triangle art, and who are they do they understand oil? Probably not much, like I said most hifi is cottage industries, for many oil is just oik of the correct thickness it is not there is far more to it. If you want to see what is correct dont look at the price tag look at the size of the company. I would be looking at what Technics use and similar massive companies who REALLY do R and D and have oil experts on the development teams not family businesses who have passion (which goes a long way) but dont understand oil. All that said what are the new Technics sp range using?
Not motor oil..
Chris

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Re: Bearing oil replacement

Post by hand of ike » 21 Mar 2018 14:01

I'm still confused....
Ok synthetic does not form varnish like non synthetics do which is why I use synthetic oils. A 30k turntable saying you need synthetic oil is not surprising, mineral oil would not hurt it if changed regularly but synthetic is sensible. When varnish forms it blocks the sintered bronze, not good.. Any alternative oil I would use must be synthetic as I said before..
Chris
Initially I said synthetic motor oil and you said a $30k table using this is not surprising..... synthetic is sensible.

Now we can see that the Mobil One you have been saying is bad is a synthetic motor oil which you said shouldn't be surprising to find in a $30k table and as it's synthetic is sensible.

I want to know if you still are saying the same now you know that the Mobil One in my Gyro SE bearing is a non surprising sensible synthetic....

Is it or not according to you? And if not why not? Because as far as I can see this would fit nicely in both the Gyro SE and the Triangle Art and for which in the Triangle Art you described as not surprising and sensible? I can't see any difference between the synthetic Mobil One oil and the oil I gave in the Triangle Art description.

Sorry this is getting tedious but we may have term confusion here and would just like some clarity as on one hand you are saying Mobil one is bad but on the other that Synthetic Motor Oil is now okay, just so I am understood the Mobil One we have been referring to all along is a Synthetic Motor Oil.

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